How to save Italian fleet

[ItIsILeClerc]

@MistuhJay:

@ItIsILeClerc:

I still think the best way to get the brits into their most cautious mode, is GE buying nothing GE1. If the Uk gets agressive, GE2 can produce a deadly force for SL GE3. Even Barbarossa is still a very good option.

But what’s stopping UK from doing the same thing?  Buy nothing, run Taranto, and wait til UK2 to respond to a Sealion threat.  Seems like a lot of German initiative is being sacrificed with little payoff.

The fact that the UK only has 1 major IC in London stops it from doing the same. Germany has 2 (WGermany + Berlin) and can squeeze out 20 units GE2 after not building anything GE1. UK however, will face major defeat if it can only place 10units UK2.

[ItIsILeClerc]

If you are known in your play group for launching nasty surprises against the UK, the best thing UK can do is play very cautious with the pieces it has that can reach London.

So far I have experienced two possible strategies for the UK to ward off a disaster (GE occupying London with a rather large garrison, very difficult for the USA to liberate -even more so if Japan can put a lot of pressure on the USA in the pacific):

• Build and bring a LOT of units to Gibraltar UK1 -> London UK2. This may either save London or get GE a pyrrhic victory easily overcome by the USA. Works against both focused and surprise Sea Lions. Note: UK has to treat ‘GE building nothing’ as a focused SL!

• Make London have 5 to 6 aircraft (no more of 4 being ftr/tac), ready to strike UK2. If GE tries to launch a surprise Sea Lion (i.e. builds a lot of TRS but does not have a lot of escortships GE2), UK can build 2CV in the channel -providing a landing spot for the shorter ranged aircraft- and kill the invasion fleet. This works only against nasty surprises and gives UK more units to fight with in the Med., possibly even doing a ‘Taranto’, but not in the most optimal strength ratio.

In my experience, the top possibility for the UK is the only ones that can ward off disaster should GE build nothing GE1 and it does NOT work if UK launches ‘Taranto’, so go ahead and punish the allies if they launch it. Maybe next time they will be more cautious, leaving more toys for Italy to play with  :wink:.

[ghr2]

@ShadowHAwk:

@cyanight:

I guess you could send 2 subs, battleship, 3 fighters, 3 t-bombers to 110 and 2 subs 1 fighter, 1 t-bomber and 2 s-bombers to 111. Your more likely to lose 1-2 planes in 111 but you should be safe from losing planes in 110 unless all the fighters hit.

But it does not help the italian fleet at all.
You do a normal opening and the UK does not scramble and sinks italy instread.
The whole point of using the BB in 111 is that you can strafe it and the UK BB cannot repair. Neither does yours.

Having a decent fleet with a damaged BB that UK might sink might entice them to actualy attack said fleet and do a mutual annihilation of the fleets and his airforce leaving the italians in a safer position.
They have 2 BB ( 1 damaged )1 CA 1 Dest 2-3 figs and 1 strat  VS 1 sub, 1 dest, 1 ca 1 BB ( damaged ) 1CV and 5 figs (or tacticals if you dont have all those figs )

Also against this treath the UK has to do something that fleet can become 2 big to handle if they leave it alone and where are they going to run? You can take gibraltar next turn as well, giving italy at least 1 of its NO’s.

Why even bother attacking 110 anyway? where is that fleet going to.

It really depends on what Ger buys G1 and how well it did in sz 106 if you want to say that the damaged UK boat can get away.

[WILD BILL]

Germany’s ability to pull off Sea Lion (or threaten SL) relies on a couple things IMO.

1. How well the opening attack goes on the British fleet, and if both BB’s were sunk (or one sunk, the other crippled). This has a major impact on how well UK can def the sea around her Island Kingdom.

2. How many planes Germany/Britain lost in the opening round.

3. If the German BB survives the first turn. w/o the BB the German fleet could be sunk before, or during the SL attack. Generally speaking if the Germans sacrifice the BB they aren’t thinking SL IMO

#3 is why I liked the hit & run w/German BB. You get to use it in the battle, but have the chance to pull it back to your naval base (repairs) and add to your fleet in the right situation. Need to be careful not to over kill sz111 trapping your damaged GE BB in sz111, but if you do at least the back bone of the British fleet is gone. To me sz110 isn’t optional. If you want to threaten SL then you need to take out the Royal Navy. Make that Island look vulnerable if they send the RAF to the Med.

I think if you are going to attempt a h&r then sz111 would be so much better then sz110. There is no UK naval base for sz111 (Scapa Flow not represented ), so the UK can’t auto fix their BB at the beginning of their turn, and run it 3 spaces to safety. This gives the Germans a pretty good chance of finishing it off G2 when it is still damaged. If sz110 is left untouched then they will merge both fleets together (probably sz109), so IMO sz110 is a must hit for G1.

[Imperious Leader]

…and wait til UK2 to respond to a Sealion threat

That makes Sealion more plausible. Germany takes UK and all that cash and UK has even less units on the board.

[knp7765]

Okay, here is my problem in trying to save the Italian fleet:
Say Germany buys nothing on G1 and sends the Luftwaffe, subs and BB after the Royal Navy. UK thinks “Oh my God, Germany’s going to invade London!” So, the UK plays conservatively, does NOT do Taranto, leaves blockers in SZ 96 & SZ 99 to protect Egypt and buys a typical defense buy for London (I usually go with 6 infantry and 1 fighter). UK also pulls everything from Scotland into London and does NOT scramble. Now, let’s assume the Italian DD in SZ 96 didn’t hit so the Malta fighter survived and landed on the carrier in SZ 98. The fighter in Gibraltar flies up to London. Now England has at their disposal 5 fighters and 1 Strategic bomber in London plus 1 fighter and 1 tac on the carrier in SZ 98.
Or, let’s go a step further and say the fighter/tac landed in Egypt and the carrier moved to SZ 81 so the Indian fighter and tac could land on it. All together the RAF is now at 7 fighters, 2 tacs and 1 bomber.
ROUND 2: Now Germany says “Forget you, I’m going after Russia.” and buys a bunch of land units and aircraft accordingly. He pulls what is left of the Kriegsmarine back into the Baltic to hide from the RAF in London, with the exception of subs of course. So all Germany has in the way of navy is 1 BB, 1 CA and 1 transport, which is in no way any kind of Sealion threat.

Now, what is to keep England from sending all that air power down into the Med and totally pasting the Italian fleet? Italy will take some losses in trying to clear out the British ships in the Med and the French. Even if they don’t go after the French, then the French may even attack the Italians, which could cost Italy further losses. What ever is left of Italy’s navy will be easy pickings for that monster RAF. The London planes, at least the fighters, may not get at the Italians until round 3, OR, if the Italians lost enough ships in battling the UK and French ships, the London planes may not even be needed. UK could finish them off with the planes from Egypt and India along with the strategic bomber from London.
Either way, the end result is all of Italy’s ships sitting on the bottom of the Med. That means no more progress for Italy. Even if they managed to land troops in Egypt, Trans Jordan or Syria, they won’t last very long. The UK will mop them up with a few land units and overwhelming air superiority.
Any ideas on how to stop this?

[ItIsILeClerc]

I don’t have ideas on how to stop this. Italy’s navy cannot be saved indefinately imho.

What I do know is that the London defense in your post is not enough to stop Germany from taking London with 20 units surviving (with LowLuck system)…
Downside for the Axis with this, is that Russia will much likely be strong enough to contest Eastern Europe for a while (but not strong enough to threaten Berlin). Upside is that London is firmly in axis hands and the Italian Navy is still largely intact.
If Italy sails out its remaining TRS (with/without protection) it can bring at least 4 more land units into Africa and (combined with its airforce) become dangerous for the UK there.
UK should have a hard time deciding between keeping the RAF in Egypt for defense or using it in killing the Italian navy but loosing precious RAF units. Possibly tipping the balance in favor of Italian ground/air forces in Africa.

Egypt can of course now be reinforced from India but their resources may be a little… limited  :wink:

So the bottomline is that maybe the UK must weaken Africa even further to keep London alive or at least make a German victory there at least a pyyrhic one (so that it can be easily liberated by the USA, spelling doom to the Axis cause).
I say maybe because this is a scenario that I have not seen played out till the end. I have seen the Germans up until their noses in trouble because of roughly 200 IPCs worth of units not active against Russia (compared to throwing everything into Stalin’s face) but that was with London liberated again.
Now there is 221IPCs worth of units less against Russia: 2 turns worth of IPCs spent on ships only + all German forces in London that will become POW’s because USA will sink the Kriegsmarine before extraction is even possible. But Germany can still decide that it doesn’t need such a large garrison in London, buying more land units against Russia and surviving Sea Lion with 11-15 units.

Very interesting things to try out :-)

[Jennifer]

How bad would it be to divert the German Strategic Bombers away from the British fleet, instead hitting SZs 91, 109 and 111?  Instead, sending the bombers after the French navy in SZ 93?

You may even be able to send 2 or 3 German fighters to S. Italy to use for Cover Air Patrol which means the British can attack, you can scramble to maximize dmg to them, and not lose the Italian Air Force (which I suspect is one reason England hopes for scrambles, to destroy those planes as well.)

Just a thought…feel free to poke holes, I didn’t test it, just thinking about it.

[Imperious Leader]

Germany already brings down a fighter so Italy has 3 planes for scramble. The trick is to find a solution where UK avoids going after Italian fleet.

The built transports for Germany are to be used latter and before, shucking Infantry and artillery to Finland, etc

What is the best plan for Germany to further sink a few UK ships that would be used for Taranto, making it even less attractive?

[JeffM]

@Cmdr:

How bad would it be to divert the German Strategic Bombers away from the British fleet, instead hitting SZs 91, 109 and 111?  Instead, sending the bombers after the French navy in SZ 93?

You may even be able to send 2 or 3 German fighters to S. Italy to use for Cover Air Patrol which means the British can attack, you can scramble to maximize dmg to them, and not lose the Italian Air Force (which I suspect is one reason England hopes for scrambles, to destroy those planes as well.)

Just a thought…feel free to poke holes, I didn’t test it, just thinking about it.

You can send the German Strat bombers against the French, but you can only hit 110 or 111 on G1… you cannot hit both without the bombers (or at least not safely).

Only hitting one sea zone or the other (110 or 111) with the Germans is not a bad move.  It frees up the German airforce to do other things on G1 (such as killing the french fleet and destroying the UK cruiser in sz 91).

[cyanight]

How are you reaching SZ91 with planes on G1?  You can hit it with subs but I don’t think the planes can reach it.

[Jennifer]

I have found that you can legally move 2 strategic bombers and 1 tactical bomber to SZ 91 (French Cruiser and Destroyer) which should result in the loss of the tactical bomber and no strategic bombers lost.

If you give up the hit on SZ 110 (because there are a lot of planes that can scramble there) you can hit SZs: 91, 93, 106 and 111 with enough movement points left to land 3 German planes in S. Italy which gives you the option of scrambling 3 non-Italian planes if England attacks.  The idea there is to actually scramble to maximize dmg to the British fleet and not lose the Italian air force giving them more punch in the Med later.

But it might be a dumb idea too. :P  Just looking for ways to make life really annoying for England in the Med.

[ghr2]

Killing German air is still a win/win for the UK if U have german planes scramble in 97.

[Jennifer]

Yes, but which is more win/win for England?

I would say Italian Air is more important than German Air and if you have the option to scramble all 3 planes as German it may be better off.  Horrible odds either way, but at least England won’t get the Italian planes and may decide that it’s not worth it at all if there’s no chance for Italian planes…

I mean, that would probably be the best possible option to save the Italian fleet…

• 2 Subs at the Cruiser in SZ 93
• 2 Strat + 1 Tac to SZ 91 to sink the French fleet
• 3 German fighters in S. Italy as a threat

Unless I am missing something else to hurl at England.

[ItIsILeClerc]

Trading allied (French) ships for German air is usually bad news for the axis cause.

It is a bit of a gambit with the dice of course, but combined with not hitting sz110, the larger part of the Italian Navy may have been saved (for a couple of turns only anyway) by allowing the RN more ships.
After reorganizing those ships will come back to haunt the axis, whilst the RAF, combined with some (or all) Indian and South African ships, kills the Italian navy anyway a couple of turns later. I really agree with knp about this.

[ghr2]

@Cmdr:

Yes, but which is more win/win for England?

I would say Italian Air is more important than German Air and if you have the option to scramble all 3 planes as German it may be better off.  Horrible odds either way, but at least England won’t get the Italian planes and may decide that it’s not worth it at all if there’s no chance for Italian planes…

I mean, that would probably be the best possible option to save the Italian fleet…

• 2 Subs at the Cruiser in SZ 91
• 2 Strat + 1 Tac to SZ 93 to sink the French fleet
• 3 German fighters in S. Italy as a threat

Unless I am missing something else to hurl at England.

Leaving the UK fleet in 110 alive helps to make up for it.  Allows the allies to get a stronger combined fleet going faster.  Uk can go to 92 and be very hard to kill.

Either way, Germany losing planes helps russia to stay alive longer and makes it harder for Germany to support italian gains and counter allied landings.  Even in the even of a 97 scramble, UK usually wins with about 3 planes surviving anyway.

[WILD BILL]

Nice catch on the sz 91/93 mix up ghr2.

Personally I wouldn’t consider raising 3 German planes to save the Italian ftrs in sz97. Would be better to use Luftwaffe in a counter attack to knock out the UK Med fleet IMO. Might scramble 1 G, and 2 IT though depending on how much UK sends to sz97, and if I’m felling lucky. Preserving German air is a high priority.

I know attacking the French in sz93 instead of the Brits sz 110 on G1 might help the Italians clear the med (get their NO), but I just can’t see leaving the BB and 2 cruisers in sz110 (42 IPCs). It allows the UK to recover too quickly, and they will be threatening your shores well ahead of schedule (also allows the US to concentrate more in the Pac in a global game). Leaving sz110 will also give the UK more of a safety blanket, because the treat of Sea Lion is even more diminished. Plus they will have more fleet on their turn, so wouldn’t that make the UK med fleet even more expendable when hitting the Italians?

I know that buying a carrier G1 slows down Barbarossa, but it could help to keep UK fighters in London UK1. Later in the game a beefed up Baltic fleet will force the allies to build a few more ships, and help you hold on to Norway.

I would also consider strafing Yugo, and maybe Paris leaving them for the Italians. The 19 IPCs Paris bounty and 4 IPC per turn for France will defiantly help rebuild the Italian fleet. You can also use the extra income to send Italians to the Russian front to can opener, or push into Caucasus/Mid East Oil so although it isn’t German income, it can be used against Russia.

[ghr2]

@WILD:

Nice catch on the sz 91/93 mix up ghr2.

Personally I wouldn’t consider raising 3 German planes to save the Italian ftrs in sz97. Would be better to use Luftwaffe in a counter attack to knock out the UK Med fleet IMO. Might scramble 1 G, and 2 IT though depending on how much UK sends to sz97, and if I’m felling lucky. Preserving German air is a high priority.

I know attacking the French in sz93 instead of the Brits sz 110 on G1 might help the Italians clear the med (get their NO), but I just can’t see leaving the BB and 2 cruisers in sz110 (42 IPCs). It allows the UK to recover too quickly, and they will be threatening your shores well ahead of schedule (also allows the US to concentrate more in the Pac in a global game). Leaving sz110 will also give the UK more of a safety blanket, because the treat of Sea Lion is even more diminished. Plus they will have more fleet on their turn, so wouldn’t that make the UK med fleet even more expendable when hitting the Italians?

I know that buying a carrier G1 slows down Barbarossa, but it could help to keep UK fighters in London UK1. Later in the game a beefed up Baltic fleet will force the allies to build a few more ships, and help you hold on to Norway.

I would also consider strafing Yugo, and maybe Paris leaving them for the Italians. The 19 IPCs Paris bounty and 4 IPC per turn for France will defiantly help rebuild the Italian fleet. You can also use the extra income to send Italians to the Russian front to can opener, or push into Caucasus/Mid East Oil so although it isn’t German income, it can be used against Russia.

That 19 plunder from france really would not change much in the med in terms of how well italy can do on the offensive.  If anything, it will help italy to be able to keep a strong defensive posture in the med.  Basically, it is unlikely that it will change much in italy getting Africa/Middle-East, but it will likely make italy harder kill for later.

[cyanight]

That’s why I was complaining about SZ 91 being able to be hit with planes on Germany’s first turn.  There is no plane that can reach SZ 91 on round 1

[WILD BILL]

@cyanight:

That’s why I was complaining about SZ 91 being able to be hit with planes on Germany’s first turn.  There is no plane that can reach SZ 91 on round 1

Yea, she meant attack the French in sz93 with Luftwaffe, and sz91 w/2 subs. Took me a minute too lol