Cavalry Unit

[protevangelium]

@Quintus:

I use older risk peices for cav. They dont fit the best but its the closest i got.

Looks to be a good size. I looked around for anything that came close, and found zilch. Maybe HGB will cook up something. I know they have a French cavalry piece in the works. Maybe an uhlan and a cossack can be slipped in…

[Noll]

Last succesfully cavalry charge was actually during ww2.  Amedeo Guillet successfully charged british armored divisions and put their tanks on fire with incendiary bombs. The objective was to slow down the british units to let the big bulk of the african Italian division to evaquate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amedeo_Guillet#World_War_II

Guillet’s most important battle happened towards the end of January 1941 at Cherù when he decided to attack enemy armoured units. At the end of 1940, the allied forces faced Guillet on the road to Amba Alagi, and specifically, in the proximity of Cherù. He was entrusted by Duca Amedeo Of Aosta with the task of delaying the allied advance from the North-West. The battles and skirmishes in which this young lieutenant was a protagonist (Amedeo did not have the appropriates rank, but he commanded an entire brigade) are boldly written in the British bulletins of war. The “devilries” that he created from day to day, almost seen as a game, explains why the British called him not only “Knight from other times” but also the Italian “Lawrence of Arabia”. Horse charges with unsheathed sword, guns, incendiary and hand bombs against the armoured troops had a daily cadence. A look at official documents show that in January 1941 at Cherù "… with the task of protecting the withdrawal of the battalions… with skillful maneuver and intuition of a commander… In an entire day of furious combats on foot and horseback, he charged many times while leading his units, assaulting the preponderant adversary (in number and means) soldiers of an enemy regiment, setting tanks on fire, reaching the flank of the enemy’s artilleries… although huge losses of men,… Capt. Guillet,… in a particularly difficult moment of this hard fight, guided with disregard of danger, an attack against enemy tanks with hand bombs and benzine bottles setting two on fire while a third managed to escape while in flames."In those months many proud Italians died, including many brave Eritreans who fought without fear for a king and a people who they never saw or knew. Even today, the “Devil Commander” uses words of deep respect and admiration for that proud population to whom he feels himself in debt as a soldier, Italian and man.

[CWO Marc]

@protevangelium:

Looks to be a good size. I looked around for anything that came close, and found zilch. Maybe HGB will cook up something. I know they have a French cavalry piece in the works. Maybe an uhlan and a cossack can be slipped in…

The 2002 edition of Sid Meier’s Civilization: The Boardgame includes these Gunpowder Era Dragoons.  The first picture below isn’t taken from a good angle, but the second one is a bit better.  I like to think of these units as representing French WWI mounted cuirassiers (if there was such a thing).

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/873915/sid-meiers-civilization-the-boardgame

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/89426/sid-meiers-civilization-the-boardgame

[protevangelium]

@CWO:

@protevangelium:

Looks to be a good size. I looked around for anything that came close, and found zilch. Maybe HGB will cook up something. I know they have a French cavalry piece in the works. Maybe an uhlan and a cossack can be slipped in…

The 2002 edition of Sid Meier’s Civilization: The Boardgame includes these Gunpowder Era Dragoons.  The first picture below isn’t taken from a good angle, but the second one is a bit better.  I like to think of these units as representing French WWI mounted cuirassiers (if there was such a thing).Â

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/873915/sid-meiers-civilization-the-boardgame

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/89426/sid-meiers-civilization-the-boardgame

Great find! French cuirassiers did ride into battle, complete with breastplates in the early part of the war. Usually, they had covers for their helmets and plates to decrease their visibility.

Austro-Hungarian hussars (I think) also wore their crested helmets even after becoming dismounted units, for a while. They probably ditched these once the steel helmets became available, but in some photos, you can see that old style helmet covered over with canvas, etc.

The modern cavalry from Civ remind me of mounted Schutztruppe units (in East Africa), or perhaps better, the mounted elements of the Seebattalion in China!

[protevangelium]

Has anyone seen cavalry sculpts on Shapeways that might fit this time period and/or scale?

[CWO Marc]

Also available are these two-part units from War! Age of Imperialism.  They’re rather large for A&A purposes, but they don’t look quite so bad next to the WWI A&A sculpts than next to the generally smaller WWII A&A sculpts.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/859746/war-age-of-imperialism

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/859747/war-age-of-imperialism

[Flashman]

If you’re going to use 1/72 scale figs you might as well get the real deal from HaT:

http://www.hat.com/Othr8/Buck64P.html

http://www.hat.com/Othr8/Buck58P.html

http://www.hat.com/Othr8/Buck57P.html

or Strelets:

http://www.plasticsoldierreview.com/Review.aspx?id=1070

http://www.plasticsoldierreview.com/Review.aspx?id=1076

[Flashman]

I’m inclining towards:

cost 6
attack @ 2
defend @ 1
promote artillery on a one-to-one basis
can be replaced by an infantry unit during any place new units phase

The cost here may seem excessive, but by and large you’re only likely to see the cavalry units that start on the board anyway. Cavalry were expensive to maintain and feed, and they ran out of horses in the end.

This is assuming my suggested new fighter rules are used (fighters level 1 start/1914, level 2 1915 etc AND only one round of air combat).

Have to compile a list of cavalry units to replace infantry in starting setup, also likely to appear in neutral armies when activated;

1 IPC = 1 inf, 1 cav
2 IPC = 2 inf, 1 art, 1 cav
3 IPC = 3 inf, 2 art, 1 cav
4 IPC = 4 inf, 2 art, 2 cav

[CWO Marc]

Here are four comparative cavalry pictures I took last night, with an A&A 1914 French infantry sculpt included to show scale.  The first two pictures are of units from from War! Age of Imperialism.

[CWO Marc]

The other two pictures are of units from the 2002 edition of Sid Meier’s Civilization: The Boardgame and from a game called Viktory II.

[Witt]

You have far too many games Marc!

[CWO Marc]

@wittmann:

You have far too many games Marc!

“Having too many games” is a theoretical concept whose validity could provoke much debate amongst the members of the A&A.org community.

[Flashman]

On opening setup, if we take each tt with 6 or more  infantry and exchange one of these for a cavalry we end up with 16 cavalry each side, which seems about right and is balanced.

With PTR add 2 extra cavalry for Russia.

[Chacmool]

@Flashman:

Have to compile a list of cavalry units to replace infantry in starting setup, also likely to appear in neutral armies when activated;

1 IPC = 1 inf, 1 cav
2 IPC = 2 inf, 1 art, 1 cav
3 IPC = 3 inf, 2 art, 1 cav
4 IPC = 4 inf, 2 art, 2 cav

…and Switzerland is getting weaker and weaker.

[Flashman]

OK I’ll revise that:

1 IPC = 1 inf, 1 cav (Bedouins)
2 IPC = 2 inf, 1 art, 1 cav
3 IPC = 4 inf, 1 art, 1 cav
4 IPC = 5 inf, 2 art, 1 cav

Swiss Zenophobia: all Swiss units fight +1 defending Switzerland.

[WILD BILL]

@Flashman:

I’m inclining towards:

cost 6
attack @ 2
defend @ 1
promote artillery on a one-to-one basis
can be replaced by an infantry unit during any place new units phase

The cost here may seem excessive, but by and large you’re only likely to see the cavalry units that start on the board anyway. Cavalry were expensive to maintain and feed, and they ran out of horses in the end.

Yea, I think 6 IPCs would be too much, 4 IPCs seems right IMO. Horses were also used to drag around Art with a high mortality rate, so cost of feed and uses wouldn’t put a calv unit higher then an art unit IMO (images from the the movie “War Horse” keeps popping into my head). I see the logic of your “can be replaced by an infantry unit during any place new units phase”, because the horses or camels go down and the men join the ranks. I don’t agree with that for two reasons though.

1. A calv unit would be much smaller then an inf unit in comparison generally speaking. Plus by rule you can’t change an art unit to inf saying they ran out of mortars (I know your house rules allow this to a certain extent Flash defying the last man rule etc…I just don’t agree, plan ahead so your stack of art don’t get stranded in Russia lol).

2. Inf in this game attack/def much better then the proposed calv unit, so you would probably just make this change in your first turn so why bother with the unit altogether (especially if you were in a defensive position).

Moving on:
Do you think there is room for a cavalry charge in this rule. I know that there isn’t a lot of data showing that cavalry had much success, but it would be a fun thing to do.

Lets say you are given two options for cavalry. You would have to choose one option or the other per calv unit, but could split your calv units in any battle to perform as you feel fit. Would give a little bit of an unknown factor to the enemy. Will he lead a preempt strike exposing his calv, or promote art keeping his calv from harms way. This would also allow you to have a second option for calv if you are insured of air superiority.

1. They can promote art 1:1 as proposed.

2. You can call for a cavalry charge and your cavalry lead (fire first) and get a kill shot at 2 or less (its normal attack value). Defenders are removed and can’t return fire. If used in this manner, attacking cavalry are taken as the first causalities.

This would give us a slightly different look to the same unit in the Western trenches vs the East/Mid East that was more open terrain. In the west if you lead a charge into the trenches, they might kill off a few def units, but would be claimed to trench warfare (die first). Pretty much a one trick pony (pun intended). In the east it would be possible to successfully take out 1 unit def inf pickets w/o taking a loss (if kill shot hits). I would say that cavalry used in an amphib (ether attacking or def) wouldn’t get either of these capabilities.  By time they off load in attacks etc… and def art already get an advantage on the coast. So in an amphib they just perform as normal (attack at 2, def at 1).

Maybe you allow def calv the same charge/kill shot (probably not). They would of coarse be def at 1 though.

[protevangelium]

What about allowing cavalry to roll and hit on half of their attack, if the overall attack is successful? In other words, if you are the attacker, and you score more hits on the enemy than you take (take this to mean your whole attacking force), you roll an additional die for each cavalry unit, hitting on a 1. Basically, to represent the real role of cavarly in this time period: to follow up on successes, pursue retreating forces, hit flanks, etc. More potent than a tank, but unable to absorb losses like them.

[WILD BILL]

Yea I was also looking for a way to simulate cavalry being held back for a clean-up/break through type tactic. I didn’t think allowing a second shot was the way to go though because if you have them fight in the main battle, then you didn’t hold them in reserve to do such a tactic (still thinking though).

I kinda thought that giving art a boost at a 1:1 kinda does that, when you factor in that calv also gets to attack at 2 as well. I know it was introduced as the calv was doing scouting that gives a boost to art, but in my mind I can see your art firing (some at 4, being promoted by calv), then inf move in (some with a promotion due to art), and then calv finishing off the battle attacking at 2. I know it is a bit of a stretch, because all units fight at the same time, and there is only one round of battle. Would be a similar argument that art should get a kill shot because in a battle they typically fire before the inf moves in. The game just allows a promotion to inf instead to show the carnage done by this tactic.

[Flashman]

Good point about people just converting cavalry round 1; but the point of having them is using them in the recon role before you get fighters in every army, or in places like the middle east where there are no railways (cav can still move 2 spaces).

So delete the conversion rule (actually most British cavalry units were converted into armoured regiments). Tanks @6 really makes cav look a bad buy.

Its about getting the right balance of a unit that is still useful early on, but rapidly becomes obsolete; and without the benefit of hindsight that the military of the time didn’t have.

Nobody would suggest not having battleships in WWII games, even though its unlikely anyone will buy them. Players who know their history should have an advantage here and buy carriers instead. So with cavalry here…

[Flashman]

Other possible cavalry uses:

The British kept large cavalry contingents on the western front to exploit a breakthrough in the German lines - which never came. So maybe cavalry can move through into an unguarded enemy tt after a battle similar to blitzing?

Perhaps also contribute to number of enemy units taken prisoner.