Protect or try to recapture an enemy capital. What would you do?

[knp7765]

Our group is involved in a game right now that has taken a rather interesting turn. In Europe, Germany did fairly well and managed to capture Moscow, Stalingrad and Leningrad. Unfortunately, the US and UK managed to overwhelm the Germans and took Berlin and Rome.
Meanwhile, Japan has grown into a HUGE monster. They totally rule the Pacific and eastern Asia. Russia, China and ANZAC are all extinct now. The Japanese are starting to encroach on the Middle East and Africa, although the UK just spanked them pretty hard in Africa. Japan is also threatening the US west coast.
So, the situation is: US has most German and Italian territories in Europe. England is pretty strong and getting ready to start marching into Russian territories, along with a small US presence. Also, France has been liberated and is starting to send tanks and mechs to help in Russia.
Italian army is non-existent. Germany almost the same – 1 infantry, 1 artillery and 1 AA gun hiding in Leningrad. So while most of Western Russia is in German hands, there is nothing to protect them from the Allies. So, obviously Japan is going to have to send troops and equipment into Russia to stop the Allies.
So, here is my question:
All four Russian factories (Leningrad, Moscow, Stalingrad, Ukraine) are under German control. Thus Japan can not build anything there.
So would it be better for Japan to send troops up there to guard these territories from the Allies?
OR, would it be better to build a large stack nearby ready to attack and take back these territories?

The first option would be pretty hard to do as all Japanese facilities are a long way away. However, if Japan is successful, it keeps important territories out of Allied hands. But the Allies are also closer to their facilities and may be able to replenish their losses quicker than Japan.
The second option would be good if Japan were successful as now Japan would have new facilities in Russia. However, if the Japanese attack fails, then the Allies can build their own units there and Japan could be in real trouble.

[Witt]

Your second option sounds better. If it takes back the Russian territories with the ICs, it will only be able to build 3 units of course, might that prove insufficient to march further West? What income does it have?
You do seem to be playing a mental sounding game. I suppose no one wants it to end!

[BulwFi]

Have the axis power not won already with Japan owning 6 out of the 8 victory cities in the Pacific theatre? Am I missing something?  :?

[knp7765]

Yeah, the more I think about it, option #2 does sound like a better plan for a couple of reasons:
1 > If the allies take those territories and Japan takes them back, it’s a little more income for Japan plus a factory up on the front lines. Along with whatever reinforcements Japan has streaming up from India, it might be enough to start pushing the Allies back, or at least hold them to a stalemate while attacking in other areas.
2 > If they liberate Moscow, Russia will collect money before Japan’s next turn. If Japan can retake Moscow, that’s extra cash in Japan’s bank.
3 > If Japan puts a large stack nearby but nothing in the actual territories, it may halt the Allies’ eastern progress. They see the large Japan stack and don’t want to liberate those factories just to have Japan take them, so they don’t move any farther.

Yes, a plan is forming. An evil plan. My hands are wringing in anticipation. BWAH ha ha ha ha!

When Japan captured Sydney (the 6th VC on the Pacific board) with no Allied units in position to retake it or any of the other Pacific VCs, we were going to call an Axis victory. However, on the next US turn they captured Berlin and Rome and the UK wiped out all but the last 3 German units. So, with the Allies dominant on one board and Japan dominant on the other, we decided to see how this turns out. We will probably finish this out next weekend.
As of the end of last round, Japan has 141 IPCs to spend. The US has 84, UK has 41 and France has 25 for a total Allied income of 150 IPCs. So it is more or less even. Japan, US and UK all have techs. I made a system where everyone can get free rolls for tech according to their income on the IPC chart (no NOs, capital plunder or convoy damage counted).
0-24 IPCs = 0 rolls
25-49 IPCs = 1 roll
50-74 IPCs = 2 rolls
75-100 IPCs = 3 rolls
101+IPCs = 4 rolls
At the beginning of each turn, if you qualify for 1 or more rolls, you get to pick which tech you want to try for. You put a control marker and a tech marker on the tech you choose and roll your die. If you get a 6, you get that tech. Put your control marker on that tech and the tech marker back in the tech marker bin. If you do NOT get a 6, you keep the tech marker under your control marker on the breakthrough chart. On your next turn, you get to roll 1 die for that tech again, PLUS you get a new tech roll for that turn to try for a different tech. You get a roll each turn, but you have to pick a different tech each time. You get to roll for all of the techs where you have control markers AND tech markers each turn until you get a 6. So, after a few turns, it is possible to get more than 1 breakthrough.
If you qualify for 2, 3, or 4 rolls, all of those have to go to 1 tech you choose. So you would put 2, 3 or 4 tech tokens under one of your control markers on the tech chart. If you get a 6, you get that tech and discard all the tech tokens. If you get more than one 6, it is still just for THAT tech. You can’t apply an extra 6 to another tech.
You can buy extra tech tokens for $5 each and apply them to any of the free rolls you have marked on the tech chart. However, if you fail to roll a 6, you lose the purchased tech tokens. You only keep the free roll to try again next turn. I figure that evens out the right to choose your techs.
So far, Japan has 7 techs with 2 still to roll for, the US has 3 techs with 3 to roll for and the UK has 5 techs with 4 to roll for. (US has less because they were neutral for 3 rounds).

[Witt]

141 income. What don’t you buy? Easy to buy the wrong hits of course.
Thank you for your explanation. Tell us who wins please.

[ItIsILeClerc]

Hard to say what I would do since I’d need more info on troops (numbers, position and composition) and what territories are still German/Italian, but with this information I’d say you have no other options but to push the attack and take out the allied IC’s in Europe while you still can:

Since the allies are dominant in Europe and with their ICs closer to the front they should be able to liberate Moscow sooner or later, adding about 20 IPCs to their income before the liberation and 30 IPCs once Moscow has been safely liberated.

So, it seems to me that even if they refuse to liberate the ICs + Moscow for a long time, the allies can still gain an economic edge of about 30 IPCs over Japan. In other words: time is ticking for the axis so you must still take the initiative and cannot ‘dig in’ to wait for the allies to come.

There are a few wildcards that can change this picture: how big is the treat on the US West Coast, how is the balance of forces in the Middle East/Africa and what German/Italian territories can still be taken by the allies without giving Japan the advantage if it takes those territories back in force (Moscow for example)…

Another interesting option might be…
…to go for the USA itself. This depends on how big the threat on its West Coast already is but if you can throw 141 IPCs per turn into an attack on the USA while it has only 84 IPCs to defend itself… mwaaaaaaaaah  :lol:.
If Japan can take Panama + SE Mexico (the latter in force)… Washington, Central America AND San Fransisco are all threatened at the same time. Obviously, Washington must be defended at all costs and if that means that Japan can take Central US + San Fransisco -> RIP USA. Its income will be reduced to just 45 IPCs.
Taking only Central or SF is also a huge blow. If you can hold it for 2 turns (airforce reinforcing it) you can most likely stay there forever, decreasing the USA’s income to 56 while yours goes up another 20 (take Alaska as a nice bonus). You can reinforce SF with max around 27 units per turn (requiring you to build ICs in Korea (major), Alaska, Queensland and Mexico) but the USA has problems to buying 18 units reinforcements there.

Edited: some numbers about the reinforcements in USA were incorrect (from scratch ;-)).

[Tall Paul]

Japan has “technically” already won the game via victory cities. However it sounds like you have an annilhilation match going on.
––Well, it’s hard to give an opinion without seeing the location and numbers of ALL forces. But if Japan has 141 income I think I would have been transitioning to a 4-engine bomber/Mech. Infantry stacks for the bulk of my armies. Bombers aren’t that expensive and have range,….Infantry is cheap and will give you the NUMBERS that you need. I’m sure you already know this.
----Unless I’m incorrect, Japan can build a Major Factory in Korea that would help your European battle efforts. A ways off,…but you could start your Infantry stacks from there. Together with two or three other other Major/Minor Asian factories you should be able to reap your (technically)already won victory. Sounds like a bunch of Fun!

----Got any PICS?  :-D

“Tall Paul”

[Tall Paul]

@rjpeters70:

Yeah, I’d go for a quick kill of USA, or at least taking West Coast and holding it.  Deny the US it’s NOs.  Make it’s factories in Germany irrelevant, since they are minors and you can out produce with your factories in Korea and India.  Walk basic infantry west across Russia.  Force the US to defend Germany/Eastern Russia while at the same time trying to defend against Japanese invasion.

––Exactly. There are 3-4 other Asian countries where you could build minor factories, too. In the long run they would probably be worth the expense as they should help overwhelm the number of US forces in Europe/Russia. WHAT A FUN GAME A&A IS!

“Tall Paul”

[Witt]

Good point about Korea Tall Paul. But it is still a hell of a long way from Moscow and Europe!
The Minor ICs might be the only option.
And I love how rjpeters wants to see the Japanese on American soil.

[MrRoboto]

Going for the US West Coast is the way to go.

If they have a large defensive stack there already, going for a big landing might be difficult. In this case, either

a) Take Panama. With a Harbour there, you are threatening a lot of places (Gibraltar as well, and from there on all of Europe).

b) Establish a quick transport route to Alaska (with a harbour there preferably).

[knp7765]

Here is a couple of pics. I hope you can make out the concentrations of units. I managed to capture most of the board between the two pics. First is Europe, second is Pacific.
Situation:
Japan has some force plowing through the Middle East, but the British are holding strong at Egypt and in Africa. Japan made a few landings there but the Brits whipped them so all Japan land units there are lost. Transports will have to go back to India for more troops.
As you can see, most of Russia and China are vast wastelands at the moment, with no Allied or Axis presence, but that soon will change. Allied units are right at the edge of the Russian border with nothing to stop them blitzing away Russian territories. There are 3 German units left in Leningrad, but I think the Brits will take care of that next round.
There is no Allied presence at all in the Pacific. The US tried fighting the Japanese with navy but the Japanese navy just got too big. The US concentrated heavily on sacking Germany, perhaps a little too much because the West coast is weak. Japan took Alaska, West Canada and Hawaii last round and the US just put 10 defensive units in W USA. They had previously been building warships and aircraft there to fight the Japanese, and they did manage to give Japan a few headaches, but everything else went to Europe.
So, it looks like Japan has a good chance at taking W USA, but with the US still having 2 major ICs to build from and a fair amount of money to spend, I’m not sure if Japan can hold it.
However, the general consensus seems to be go ahead after the US and not worry as much about the Middle-East, Africa or Russia. You are all right, if Japan can take the US out, it doesn’t matter if Russia get’s liberated. Japan will then be able to overwhelm both England and Russia with all of the US territory under it’s belt. It just depends if Japan can somehow match the US production.
By the way, since Japan is ruled by a Militaristic oligarchy, if/when Japan gets into Europe and takes former German and Italian territories, they will NOT be liberated. They will now be Japanese. After all, Japan is the ONE true race, and the Germans and Italians are losers and thus have no honor.

[MrRoboto]

Now that we’ve seen pictures, I can give some more input:

Africa/Middle East:

You have no chance in Africa. Your main goal should be to hold Iraq. I suggest building factories in Iraq and Persia. Pump out infantry against a landattack from Egypt. All excess units should go to Tambov -> that way you can recapture Moscow, Volgograd and Rostov. If it’s possible to recapture Ukraine for the factory there, do so.
I really recommend building/sending some more air in the middle East. Right now you are very vulnerable to the US navy there. The US navy can send protection for british transports to land in India or whatever. With a strong japanese airforce, they can’t really navigate a lot. Additionally your airforce is ALSO protecting against a land invasion coming from egypt. AND it can fly to tambov and attack the russian territories. An airfield in Iraq is helpful.
So overall:

• Play defensive, especially with airforce in Iraq that serves multiple purposes.
• Maintain a force big enough to recapture major russian territories (moscow, ukraine, stalingrad)

Pacific

This is where the gap between you and the Allies is the biggest. Additionally, UK can’t help here a lot. So you have to make sure to always invest a bit more here than the US can.
Place a harbor+factory in Alaska. Strengthen your navy, so that US can’t suddenly make an all-navy buy in one round to push you away. Your navy also needs to be bigger than the US atlantic navy. Send more subs to convoy the US westcoast.
I suggest to establish a transport rotation from Japan/Korea to Alaska. Have ~15-20 transports overall (for example 8 at Japan, 8 at Alaska, bringing 16 troops every round). Since Alaska will have a harbour, you are threatening Panama all the time.
When the possibility arises, capture Panama (only, if you can hold it against the counter attack). Remember, you can build transports in the Alaska factory, so that eventually you’ll be able to land in Panama AND US Westcoast anytime with more than 15 transports.
If you can hold Panama for one round, to pass the canal and build a harbor there, you are on a very good way, as long as your navy is bigger than the Allied navy. From there on, I see no way for you to lose, anymore.

How to react, should UK decide to really invest a lot in Atlantic to help hold Panama:

In this case, I suggest taking your entire Pacific navy and sail to Iraq. US will have mostly ground units in USA and not a lot of transports. So these troops will be useless now, for a couple of rounds.
It should be very hard for the Allies, to defend south africa AND egypt. And if you have one of them, you have a good position.

[ItIsILeClerc]

Interesting situation!

The USA itself is indeed the place where your only chance of victory is.
I’d invest as much on defeating the USA on its very own soil as needed, with the excess IPCs going to defend your asian and Middle East theatres. It’s not too big of a gamble. Read my first post (last aragraph) and all the suggestions by the others about how-to (possibly) kill the USA. Remember it is not a 100% guarantee but the best shot at victory you have.

You will loose this game if you will try to defeat the allies in Russia/Africa, because with all the territories that they still can liberate without you being able to do anything about it, they will reach an income of around 175 IPCs together, defeating your 141 eventually. All allies can deploy easily on this theatre and if they dig in and spend as much as you do in here, they can spend their excess (30-ish) IPCs elsewhere, where you can be defeated eventually.

I even think Liberating Moscow is not beyond the allies because their ICs are closer by, creating an even bigger economic gap.

In Amerika however, it is more difficult for the allies to deploy together.

Remember that taking US WC will decrease their income by 20 IPCs and increase yours by 15! They may have 2 majors in the USA but only 64 IPCs to buy units there

[Tall Paul]

––After seeing the pics and your situation in Europe & Africa,…I agree with MrRoboto’s strategy.
It looks like you have a VERY ENJOYABLE game going on there! Thanks for sharing it with us.
––I can’t say this enough,…
Axis & Allies is the best game in the World!

“Tall Paul” :-D

[MrRoboto]

To be perfectly honest, if the Allies react correctly, I think they have a bigger shot at victory.

France can produce fighters, UK can set up a quick transport-rotation from London to help secure US soil.

It’s hard to really see the exact army strengths in the pictures. So I really can’t forsee, if you’ll be able to get Panama and/or US West.

But if you’re not able to do this, the race for Africa (you via indian ocean, the allies via atlantic+med) will be the ultimate climax afterwards

[ItIsILeClerc]

@MrRoboto:

To be perfectly honest, if the Allies react correctly, I think they have a bigger shot at victory.

France can produce fighters, UK can set up a quick transport-rotation from London to help secure US soil.

It’s hard to really see the exact army strengths in the pictures. So I really can’t forsee, if you’ll be able to get Panama and/or US West.

But if you’re not able to do this, the race for Africa (you via indian ocean, the allies via atlantic+med) will be the ultimate climax afterwards

Agree completely.
Thus, I think the best shot at victory comes from hitting the US as hard as possible and hold out in Asia/Africa/Middle East as long as possible.
Trying to win in Mainland Eurasia just plays into the allies’ hands right from the start…

[knp7765]

UPDATE
Well, we got through round 18 last night. Here’s the situation:
The Brits were too strong in Egypt and ended up taking Iraq and Persia from Japan even though Japan put a shiny new Minor IC on each and were pumping out units there. It just wasn’t enough. They also kept going and liberated Calcutta as well.
The Allies also liberated Russia and marched into part of China. Their progress is slowed now because they are closer to the Japan ICs on the coast (Korea, Kiangsu and Kwangtung). There is a bitter back and forth battle there between Japan and British, Russian and French units (yes, believe it or not, French!).
On the other side, Japan did take Western USA and traded Central USA with the US 3 or 4 times before finally having enough there to keep it. ICs on Alaska and Mexico helped there. There were a couple of fights for Central America but Japan finally got that too. They worked their way across Canada and got that IC so Eastern US was pretty much surrounded. Then Japan finally went all out and took Washington.
After about 3 rounds to build up new troops and get their transport fleet from the Pacific to the Atlantic, Japan pulled a Sealion and took London.
So now Japan has all the Pacific, all of the US and London with a very strong fleet in the Atlantic. There is no Allied naval presence anywhere. Japan has gotten into Africa from the west this time and has taken several territories, including South Africa and it’s IC.
The only Allies left are India, Russia, France and sort of China. China has Allied forces liberating their territories, but has only been able to buy 1 or 2 infantry per turn which usually get wiped out by the next Japanese attack, so they aren’t really helping much.
Japan has a smaller force of 5 transports with 5 infantry, 3 tanks and 2 mechs at Gibraltar, plus 3 tanks left in London, and are trying to figure out where to go next.
1 > they could attack France, sort of like a reverse Normandy landing.
2 > they could try liberating Italy.
3 > they could try liberating Germany.
4 > they could spread out and pick off little territories in North Africa, the Balkans and possibly Scandanavia.
5 > they could go all the way up north and try to punch down through Russia to recapture Moscow.

By the way, I know at this point is seems silly to continue this game and I thought we would call it done, but my gaming buddies asked me to leave it up. Maybe they are wanting to see how long it takes for Japan to accomplish total world domination? Since my weekend is about over, probably won’t get back to the game until next weekend if at all.
Just out of curiosity, which of the above options would you choose in this situation?

[ch0senfktard]

Did England and France even bother to send aid to the USA?

[MrRoboto]

The game worked out 100% as I said it would :-)

You shouldn’t even have bought the IC’s in Iraq/Persia it seems. It was hard to see the exact army strength from the pictures. Without these IC’s, liberating Calcutta would have been probably way harder.

The Allies did not seem to correctly respond to Japan threatening US soil. I still believe, that with enough help from London, Washington could have been defended.

You can basically do everything you want now, there is no way for you to lose.

You really shouldn’t liberate Italy. Personally, I wouldn’t liberate Germany either. Both would start with 0 units, only very small income and only a minor IC. The non-japanese units can’t attack on their own either, cause they’re probably too weak.

Personally, I’d declare war to the true neutrals now. Take Venezuela, Chile and Argentina for even more extra IPC.

You can the very easily establish a transport rotation from US east+central + London to Spain (with a harbour in spain, that rotation is super strong).
Going for Norway+Sweden+Finland is a good idea too, cause Russia will have problems defending that.

Convoy Africa, Iraq, Persia and India all the way

[JamesG]

@rjpeters70:

Who controls Berlin and Rome?  If the US, ignore them.  If the British, kill them.  Otherwise, you’ll have a cancer that can roll out three infantry a turn.

Can UK-India use Factories on the Europe map?  I thought only UK-London could.  And Japan controls London now, so I think Berlin/Rome are “dead” in either US or UK hands.

Or am I wrong about that?