HBG units "Custom" Rules question (Global game)

[dajohu]

Hi,
I’ve been playtesting (on my own) some added units from HBG and was hoping for some feedback.  I’ve been using Self Propelled Artillery, Tank Destroyers, and Heavy Tanks (Tiger and KV-2).  I’ve been trying to get a balance of simplicity and flexibility and the stats I’ve been using are:

SP Artillery = identical to regular artillery in all ways except have a movement range of 2 and cost +1 IPC at 5.  (seems to work great)

Tank Destroyer and Regular Tanks have been modified in my rules in that I’ve went back to the A&A 1942 style rules for tanks 3/2/2 but kept the cost at 6 and added TD at 2/3/2 @ 6.  This gives the player the flexibility of being offense or defense heavy as the situation demands.  (also seems to work very well)

Heavy Tanks are where I’m running into the most trouble.  Originally, I had Heavies costing 8 IPC and a movement range of only 1 during combat (2 during non-combat) and attack/defend at 4.  So, 4/4/1(2) @ 8 IPC.  The problem is that with Germany you have an unstoppable juggernaut by round 4 or so.  My second attempt was to basically make Heavies be the normal 3/3/2 but costing maybe 7 or 8.  This seems to help but haven’t had a chance to really playtest this configuration yet.  My one other idea would be to keep the 4/4/1(2) @ 8 but limit the number that could be built.

Any ideas/comments would be appreciated.  Thanks!

[toblerone77]

I have every battle piece HBG sells with the exception of the new Japanese units. Doing this in D6 is difficult but do-able. I’ll keep you posted.

Here’s one idea though: Use your TD’s like AAA guns but for tanks on defense. Offensively they operate like a medium tank attacking at 3. Remember also Germany has five tank types, the alles have pontentially three classes if you use the AA41 JS-2 tanks for UK and USA heavy tanks as well as Russia.

[dajohu]

Thanks for the response.

I absolutely love HBG and have spent entirely too much money over the last couple years buying different pieces from them.

I had already thought about something along the lines you were proposing but decided for simplicity’s sake (my friends that I’ll be playing with have very little A&A experience) to avoid special rules as much as possible.  Also, I’m trying to keep the roles of Tank Destroyers sorta historically accurate without making them OP which in my mind a AA gun like defense would totally negate the advantage of large infantry forces as a buffer to your armored units.  That being the case I still want to use them as I like the HBG models better than OOB items pretty much across the board.

In regards to the multiple tank types available, I’m trying to stick to only the 3 new unit types I mentioned again for simplicity’s sake and to avoid using d12 if possible.  (Also to save a little money) :D

Any suggestions on the Heavy Tank conundrum I’m having for balance purposes?  By the way, I’m currently only allowing Germany and Russia to build them since again that is historically accurate for the most part.

[toblerone77]

One more thought on TDs as Armored AAA, is that it only targets tanks, hence no INF buffer. It also solves some balancing issues in regards to heavies if you go with a two-hit formula. It helps stop a lot of tank hammering.

[SpitfirED]

I know this topic has been dormant for some time but thought it would be better to say here that I play with heavy tanks on a cost: 7/ att and def: 4 basis but with a move of just 1.

I like to keep house rules ruthlessly simple and eliminating the suggested heavy tank non combat move of 2 also helps to ensure the unit doesn’t become too overpowering. (Also helped by the fact that I also play with heavy artillery on a cost 5, att/def 3 and move 1 basis so both attacker and defender have access to a unit with +1 hit for +1IPC compared to OOB).

[toblerone77]

It all really depends on how many HBG units your going to bring into the game. Remember you also have light tanks, armored cars etc… I’m working on some D6 stats for everything but I’m waiting on much of it until we get both sets of Japanese units available from HBG.

A good resource is is the tripleA game 1941 that was made for older versions of tripleA. New world order also provides some good numbers to work with. The other thing you may need to do is not be afraid of alotting multiple dice and hits or extending range. Furthermore you can make some unavailable unless certain conditional requirements are met. Making Tigers unavailable unit the second or fourth turn would be a good example.

Basically you’ll need to have some house rules your group is going to be comfortable witb and not be afraid to power up and power down units as necessary.  Good luck!

[knp7765]

Here are some combat values for 11 different possible units you could incorporate into the game. Someone put this idea here in the forum on another thread way back when we first started getting different types of units from HBG. It keeps to a formula of ATT + DEF + MOVE - 1 = COST. That formula seems to work pretty well for land units but not for planes or ships.
                                      Attack Defense Move Cost
Infantry                            1          2          1      3
Elite Infantry                      2          2          1      4
Mobile Infantry                  1          2          2      4
Armored Infantry                2          1          2      4
Light Tank                          2          2          2      5
Artillery                              3          2          1      5
Medium Tank                      3          2          2      6
Medium Tank Dest/SPG      2          3          2      6
Heavy Artillery                    4          2          1      6
Heavy Tank                        4          3          2      8
Heavy Tank Dest/SPG        3          4          2        8

You could even tinker around with some of these to fit your purpose, like having Heavy Tanks only move 1 but attack and defend @ 4. That’s an idea I have also pondered since the bigger heavier tanks simply didn’t move as fast as some of the medium and light tanks.
Elite Infantry could be paratroopers, SS, Guards, Commandos, SNLF, etc. You could even have some type of special rules or advantages for each one, although that would add complexity to the game.
Mobile Infantry would probably be trucks and jeeps. I am planning a special set of rules for those pieces along the lines of transport planes and transport ships.
Armored Infantry would be like armored cars and maybe half-tracks.

[Imperious Leader]

The problem is that with Germany you have an unstoppable juggernaut by round 4 or so.

They can only covert a tank for 2 IPC, or buy one heavy tank…and the limit on each specialty unit is 6 total at one time

[toblerone77]

The American theory on tank warfare was to use medium tanks and tank destroyers. It took a team of four Shermans to take out a single German Tiger tank. The US tank destroyer was an offensive weapon equipped with light armor and a heavy gun for speed , mobility and offensive power. Where the Sherman was a medium, reliable and easily adapted tank that combined with infantry for assault.

It really depends on where you want to go with your HRs to implement these rules. Historical or “what if” What if the Russians shared the design or lease lent for the “Stalin” tank and the US produced it? Or, conversely you created a bonus for the OOB Sherman and HBG TD to have some bonus when attacking as they historically did.

It really depends on what you want in a game and it takes some work and research. Any and everyone will have a different opinion on this and any other topic. It’s really going to depend on your group or club of players to decide. You will never get a definitive “ruling” on your house rules from the board but you will get suggestions for good or bad. Use your knowledge, creativity and just have fun.

Good Luck Friend!

[CWO Marc]

@toblerone77:

What if the Russians shared the design or lease lent for the “Stalin” tank and the US produced it?

The nice thing about A&A 1941 is that it provides American-green IS-2 tanks which allow precisely this situation to be represented.

[baron Münchhausen]

@CWO:

@toblerone77:

What if the Russians shared the design or lease lent for the “Stalin” tank and the US produced it?

The nice thing about A&A 1941 is that it provides American-green IS-2 tanks which allow precisely this situation to be represented.

I’m just wondering about Russia.
Did anyone give them a T-34 tank with this stat (like the old Armor from 2e ed.):
                       Att       Def       Move   Cost
Medium Tank      3          2          2        5

Instead of the reg Armor unit:

Att       Def       Move   Cost
Panzer/Tiger? Tank      3          3          2        6

I’m asking because it can be a way to slightly increase the production of fast moving units and simulate the man’s-craft and production difference of German vs Soviet tank ?

[baron Münchhausen]

@knp7765:

Here are some combat values for 11 different possible units you could incorporate into the game. Someone put this idea here in the forum on another thread way back when we first started getting different types of units from HBG. It keeps to a formula of ATT + DEF + MOVE - 1 = COST. That formula seems to work pretty well for land units but not for planes or ships.
                                     Attack Defense Move Cost
Infantry                             1          2          1      3
Elite Infantry                      2          2          1      4
Mobile Infantry                   1          2          2      4
Armored Infantry                2          1          2      4
Light Tank                          2          2          2      5
Artillery                              3          2          1      5
Medium Tank                      3          2          2      6
Medium Tank Dest/SPG       2          3          2       6
Heavy Artillery                    4          2          1      6
Heavy Tank                        4          3          2       8
Heavy Tank Dest/SPG         3          4          2        8

You could even tinker around with some of these to fit your purpose, like having Heavy Tanks only move 1 but attack and defend @ 4. That’s an idea I have also pondered since the bigger heavier tanks simply didn’t move as fast as some of the medium and light tanks.
Elite Infantry could be paratroopers, SS, Guards, Commandos, SNLF, etc. You could even have some type of special rules or advantages for each one, although that would add complexity to the game.
Mobile Infantry would probably be trucks and jeeps. I am planning a special set of rules for those pieces along the lines of transport planes and transport ships.
Armored Infantry would be like armored cars and maybe half-tracks.

Speaking of different type of unit:
This Artillery will be a better historical representative since Art are less mobile and better for defensive stand, I think:

Medium Artillery    A2D3M1C5 each give +1A to 1 Inf.
Mobile Artillery? A2D2M2C5, each give +1A to 1 Inf.
and both can be a companion to
T-34 medium Tank A3D2M2C5, can Blitz.

But this is all inside the 1940 Global cost paradigm:
Art A2D2M1C4 and Armor A3D3M2C6.

Maybe Light Tank can be A2D2M2C4, can Blitz.

OOB Mech (mobile) Infantry are A1D2M2C4, get +1A when paired with Art, can blitz with Armor.

Maybe Armored Infantry A2D1M2C4, get +1A when paired with Art or even Tank, can blitz with Armor?.

Here is a summary.

Inside Global 1940 cost:

Mech Infantry      A1D2M2C4, get +1A when paired with Art, can blitz with tank.
Armored Infantry A2D1M2C4, get +1A when paired with Art (even tank?), can blitz with tank.

Light Tank           A2D2M2C4, can blitz.

Light Artillery       A2D2M1C4, each give +1A to 1 Inf.      OOB Artillery

Mobile Artillery     A2D2M2C5, each give +1A to 1 Inf.
Medium Artillery   A2D3M1C5, each give +1A to 1 Inf.

Medium Tank(T34) A3D2M2C5, can blitz.

Heavy Tank           A3D3M2C6, can blitz.        OOB Armor
Hvy Tank Destroyer A4D4M1C7, no blitz.

Or
Heavy Tank Destroyer A4D3M1C7, destroy tank on roll of “1”.

[CWO Marc]

@Baron:

I’m just wondering about Russia.
Did anyone give them a T-34 tank with this stat (like the old Armor from 2e ed.):
                       Att       Def       Move   Cost
Medium Tank      3          2          2        5
Instead of the reg Armor unit:
                                   Att       Def       Move   Cost
Panzer/Tiger? Tank      3          3          2        6

I haven’t looked at all the proposed tables in detail, but one thing to remember about the T-34 is that its protection level was excellent for a medium tank.  Its armour wasn’t unusually thick, but it was severely sloped, which augmented its effectiveness.  When the Germans first ran into it with their Panzer IIIs and IVs, they got a nasty suprise when they saw some of their shells literally bouncing off the T-34.  They were so impressed that they produced their own adaptation of the T-34, the Panther.

[toblerone77]

@CWO:

@toblerone77:

What if the Russians shared the design or lease lent for the “Stalin” tank and the US produced it?

The nice thing about A&A 1941 is that it provides American-green IS-2 tanks which allow precisely this situation to be represented.

Yes indeed sir. Once my Japanese units come in from HBG I’ll be buying some more of these! I may just buy anther 41 edition because I love a lot of the sculpts in that edition. It also provides the optimal pieces to accommodate lend lease house rules. The HBG P-40  and FW-190 are okay but the OOB ones are much better IMO.

[toblerone77]

Just my opinion here. You can add extra attack dice or hit points to your heavy armor. It won’t unbalance the game as much as you might think. If ALL players have them available it isn’t going to crash your game. It might actually speed up games like G40. If you have a variety of units don’t be afraid to power them up a little.

Additionally, some nations might have a weapon or two that others do not giving a sort of national advantage. There’s a lot of good stuff to use. The HBG units aren’t OOB anyway so you may as well bend some rules to bring them in LOL.

[CWO Marc]

@toblerone77:

I may just buy anther 41 edition because I love a lot of the sculpts in that edition.

Me too – I own several copies of 1941 for that reason.  And I like the fact that, even though the rules designate them as tanks and battleships, the 1941 game provides both the Axis and the Allies with sculpts for heavy tanks and for battlecruisers, so it’s easy to treat them in house rules as land units distinct from medium tanks (which is what most of the other A&A tank sculpts are) and as sea units positioned between battleships and cruisers.

[baron Münchhausen]

@CWO:

@Baron:

I’m just wondering about Russia.
Did anyone give them a T-34 tank with this stat (like the old Armor from 2e ed.):
                   Att    Def   Move    Cost
Medium Tank   3       2       2         5
Instead of the reg Armor unit:
                                  Att    Def    Move    Cost
Panzer/Tiger? Tank    3    3        2           6

I haven’t looked at all the proposed tables in detail, but one thing to remember about the T-34 is that its protection level was excellent for a medium tank.  Its armour wasn’t unusually thick, but it was severely sloped, which augmented its effectiveness.  When the Germans first ran into it with their Panzer IIIs and IVs, they got a nasty surprise when they saw some of their shells literally bouncing off the T-34. They were so impressed that they produced their own adaptation of the T-34, the Panther.

After some research, what you said sound very right.
It implies that the basic medium tank is the OOB 1940 global: A3D3M2C6.
Unless, someone desire to play a more progressive game with tank.
Starting on the board with some A3D2M2C5 and adding some better tank after.
But it will affect the balance of the game.

Otherwise: Panther (Panzer Mark V) and Tiger (Panzer Mark VI) should have better stats than OOB Medium Tank A3D3M2C6.

Fast  Heavy tank (Panther) A4D3M2C7, can blitz, give +1A to TcB when paired with.
Slow Heavy tank (Tiger)    A4D4M1C7, no blitz, give +1A to TcB when paired with.

Heavy Tank Destroyer A4D4M1C8, no blitz, destroy a tank on a “1” roll.

[baron Münchhausen]

Here is a revised summary.

Inside Global 1940 system cost:

Mech Infantry OOB   A1D2M2C4, get +1A when paired with Art, can blitz with tank.
Armored Infantry A2D1M2C4, get +1A when paired with Art (even tank?), can blitz with tank.

Light Artillery       A2D2M1C4, each give +1A to 1 Inf.      OOB Artillery

Medium Artillery  A3D3M1C5, each give +1A to 1 Inf.
Mobile   Artillery  A2D3M2C5, each give +1A to 1 Inf.

Heavy Artillery     A3D4M1C6, each give +1A to 1 Inf.

Light Tank           A3D2M2C5, can blitz, give +1A to TcB when paired with.

Medium Tank (T-34) A3D3M2C6, can blitz, give +1A to TcB when paired with.  OOB Armor

Fast  Heavy tank (Panther) A4D3M2C7, can blitz, give +1A to TcB when paired with.
Slow Heavy tank (Tiger)    A4D4M1C7, no blitz, give +1A to TcB when paired with.

Heavy Tank Destroyer A4D4M1C8, no blitz, destroy a tank on each “1” rolled.

What do you think of this scale increments in stats?

[toblerone77]

Consider the fact that there are also light tanks like the; Stuart, Panzer 35t, Panzer II, T-26, the 7TP. There are also; Panzer III, Chi-Ha, and various “to be determined” medium tanks to contend with when figuring out formulas for stats. Coach has indicated that there will be a Panzer IV in a potential German set. The current incarnations of Italian and Japanese tanks are in fact light tanks. There are also heavy tanks in the works.

I don’t like D12 rule sets and am working on my own D6 variant as pieces come out. The problem when posting on the board is just the honest fact that many people just don’t like the new units. Many don’t own any of the units. Lastly, You’ll have to bend the OOB structure of the game and it just doesn’t jive OOB rules, tourney play, or tripleA games. THAT"S TOTALLY FINE. I’m not trying to convert anyone or discredit their opinion. There are a few of us “piece junkies” and quite frankly “outlaw” players/groups that want more/different game experiences.

To play D6 or use the HBG units for more than just “eye candy” you have to up the ante on range, hit points, dice rolls or cost. An example of this was the much hated Heavy Bomber of the Classic edition. It was hated because it gave a huge advantage to the player that owned the technology. In my experience it didn’t mean you won the game, that just my opinion. My point is that IF EVERYONE had had Heavy Bombers then who had the advantage?

If you power up, extend range, adjust cost, or add hit points to units that EVERYONE has or can purchase it doesn’t break the game. If everyone is paying the same price for the same unit it doesn’t break the game either.

So if we want Heavy Armor we have to have a unit to represent it. The JS2 would do nicely for the Allies. Then we have to give it some advantage. Double the fire power, hit points, and cost making it 12 IPCs. Wait! but why not just buy two tanks? Reduce the cost by 1-3 IPCs. It will have the advantage of being easier to transport etc…

I’m not using that as a hard and fast formula I’m simply using it as an example. Nobody has a “cornered” market because ANYONE could buy that tank and ANYONE could use or abuse it’s advantages. I’m sure many won’t like an idea like this for any number of reasons but I’d challenge someone to try it and see what happens.

More action, more battles, less waiting around watching everyone else play and less complicated.

Edit: I suppose my first paragraph could be ignored. LOL

[baron Münchhausen]

Hi Toblerone77,
I was just trying to show on an empirical basis that there is some room to integrate in a balance scaled more units inside the known stats of ground units.
**There is at least 7 ways of modelling stats:

1. Attack factor
2. Defence factor
3. Movement of unit
4. Cost of unit
5. Special bonus when paired to another unit
6. Double hit value (with or without repair capacity)
7. Other special ability**

Of course, the more you subdivide Infantry, Artillery and Tank the more difficult to create a specific unit which worth the purchase and has his own strategical function inside the ground units.

To create  1 unit which defend @4 and cost more than 2 Inf., you can ask why bother buying this D4 unit? It is better to maximize defence with 2 hits and 2D2.

As you said:
@toblerone77:

So if we want Heavy Armor we have to have a unit to represent it. The JS2 would do nicely for the Allies. Then we have to give it some advantage. Double the fire power, hit points, and cost making it 12 IPCs. Wait! but why not just buy two tanks? Reduce the cost by 1-3 IPCs. It will have the advantage of being easier to transport etc…

As a precise example:
1 Inf+ 1Art= A4D4M1C7, 2 units vs
Fast  Heavy Tank (Panther) A4D3M2C7
This is the same cost, only 1 unit but you get a single punch A4 from 2 space-away, blitz, + bonus to TcB.

However, it is less interesting to buy a Tiger from this strategical point of view:
Slow Heavy Tank (Tiger)    A4D4M1C7, no blitz, give +1A to TcB when paired with.

Then, maybe it is needed to give it 2 hits.

Then it becomes:
Slow Heavy Tank (Tiger)    A4D4M1C7, 2 hits, no blitz, give +1A to TcB when paired with.

But we should say that this unit cannot be repaired (unlike BB). After a second hit, it disappears from the board.
Then we have 2 very different units for the same cost of 7 IPCs.