With edits - sorry it’s been a while guys.
Hi all - been working on this setup with a buddy of mine, and played it a couple games now, and it’s been pretty cool so far…
I’ve acquired some white game pieces for Vichy (and roundels - thanks HBG)
The OOB blue French units become the units of Free France (also with roundels, thanks again HBG)
All starting the instant that Paris falls… the following immediately happens:
Vichy France Spawns
Vichy France is an Axis power
All remaining mainland France territories immediately convert to Vichy control with the exception of French Equatorial Africa
French ships in the Med convert to Vichy control
Vichy France National Objective:
“Delires de Pertinence” � if Vichy France controls an operational MIC, Vichy France gains 5 IPC.
Vichy construction of an MIC unlocks production of aircraft (exception: strategic bombers)
Fighter (10 IPC)
Tactical Bomber (11 IPC)
Vichy capital = S France (mIC can be upgraded as normal to MIC to attain the NO
Restricted production capabilities:
- Air… cannot produce aircraft unless controlling an operational MIC (see NO)
- Sea… TR, DD only
Tribute:
- an Axis power to “garrison” land units in a Vichy territory claims tribute worth 1/2 that territory’s IPC value, rounded up.
(example: Germany garrisons troops in S France (worth 3 IPC). Vichy gets 2 IPC, and Germany ALSO gets 2 IPC while
Germany has troops there)
- Commandeered Production:
- A garrisoning power has the option to build ONE unit a turn at a Vichy factory of a type that Vichy can produce. This
unit will belong to the garrisoning power.
Free France (DeGaulle)
Free France remains with the Allies
Free France National Objective: “Vive La Liberte” - At the end of Free France’s turn, if they have three territories or more in Africa, they receive 3 IPC.
Upon the fall of Paris, the following territory comes under Free French control: French Equatorial Africa
French navy in English Channel are Free French
French units in London are Free French
spawn 2 inf in FEA upon the fall of Paris (pro-DeGaulle movement)
NO production… they purchase/place units as the China mechanic
Vichy territory liberated by the Allies reverts to Free France
when Paris is liberated, Vichy is disbanded, and Free France regains it’s status as Mainline France, and regains its pre-fall production capabilities
Adjusted Turn Order
Germany
USSR
Japan
US
UK
Italy
ANZAC
Vichy France
Free France
–----
We’ve found that the addition of the Vichy, really alters the tactics involved. Italy becomes much more dangerous, Vichy adopts the “little brother” role. The Mediterranean/African/Middle East theatre really becomes a lot more interesting, in the test games we’ve played.
We don’t use the Convoy Rule, so our tactics may differ from the rest of the community, but we are 1-and-1, regarding Allies vs Axis balance.
Game 1 went Allies… Japan went hard J1, but petered out by J6 due to losses from eastern Russians nonsense, Chinese/UK Burma turtle, and US early Atlantic success allowed them to spend more in the Pacific, Germany got diced bad against the UK fleet on G1, and the US went Gibraltar smash US2 after UK’s Taranto and booted Vichy/Italy out of N Africa by Round 5 to relieve a beleaguered UK and Free French at Egypt. UK hit Normandy UK7, US hit S France US 7. Germany held Paris. The Axis surrendered Round 9
Game 2 went Axis… Japan took Hong Kong, Honolulu, Manila J1… Germany had a more normal roll vs UK fleet on G1. UK-Europe turtled London, but lost Egypt. UK and Free French stopped Italy south of the Sahara. Vichy turtled Europe’s west coast, while Germany stalled the US beachhead at Norway due to strafes/SBRs, and USSR turtled Moscow. Eastern USSR marched into Manchuria, made run at Shanghai, but couldnt get there in time. Japan sunk a couple turns worth of US San Fran naval production via air raid from carriers off Honolulu, while the rest of the fleet neutralized UK-Pac/ANZAC fleet, turtled Honk Kong and Shanghai and hit Queensland on J7 on an all-in Sydney gambit… Allies surrendered Round 8.
This idea is much better then the ideas I thought of before. I going have to try this out.
I give a 2 thumbs up to you and your buddy. :-D
Welcome to the forums.
Interesting approach. I have been working on my own, somewhat similar but I have used HBG blue pieces that the USA can lean lease to Free France, and that they can construct units at allied production facilities.
I’m still working on the idea, and haven’t play tested it yet. But I my look closer at your idea’s and re-evaluate mine.
In case it’s helpful to your project, my Global 1940 2nd Edition Map Analysis, located here…
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=36590.0
…contains three sections (Reply #12, 13 and 14) detailing what French territories had which status on what dates. Some went over to the Free French side more or less immediately after France fell.
Regarding this objective…
…I have a couple of comments. First, a gain of 5 IPCs for the survival of a cruiser sounds disproportioantely high. Second, “national pride” is a very tricky concept to apply to Vichy France. From the perspective of the Free French, the Vichy regime was a craven, morally bankrupt pack of collaborationists who had sold out France’s honour. Vichy, of course, saw things differently: it believed (or at least it tried to convince itself) that France had retained a modicum of autonomy under the terms of surrender, a surrender which Petain had announced on the radio which he would seek with Hitler “between soldiers” and “with honour”. In my opinion, the “national pride” of the Vichy regime amounted to collective self-delusion, combined with Petain’s considerable arrogance and paternalistic authoritarianism. Tne result was the establishment of a Petain personality cult which, as you can see from the Vichy-produced propaganda films of the time, has a creepy resemblance to the one that’s existed in North Korea since the end of WWII. For example, there’s the story of an ocean liner whose construction began in 1939 at the La Ciotat yard. More or less completed by June 1944 (coincidentally, the month on which the liberation of Franec began), she was launched under the name of – you guessed it – the “Marechal Petain”. She was sunk by the Germans a couple of monthls later, raised in 1946 and re-named (in another ironic twist) “La Marseillaise”.
Hey, I like what you’ve come up with.
One thing I would point out is that Madagascar was definitely Vichy territory to start with, and had to be invaded by the Allies. Also, I believe FIC was at least nominally Vichy. French Polynesia (represented on the G40 Map by New Habrides) and French Equatorial Africa sided with the Allies from the start.
I like ur ruleset cuz it makes Vichy a playable faction. U might also find this of interest, which is a rule set included in the G40 Balance Mod–approaches the Vichy issue from a different angle.
VICHY FRANCE RULE SET
The G40 Balance Mod may be played with or without the following rule-set, which is included for historical interest.
Game Conditions for Franco-German Armistice
At the beginning of France’s turn, if the following conditions are met, the Franco-German Armistice will occur:
1. Axis must control both France and Normandy Bordeaux;
2. France must control Southern France; and
3. There must be no non-French, Allied units in Southern France.
Game Consequences of Franco-German Armistice
French Territorial Control: At the beginning of France’s first turn in which Armistice conditions are met, all originally French territories not already under Axis control immediately change ownership to Pro-Axis Neutrals, except: (1) French Equatorial Africa; (2) New Hebrides; (2) any French territories containing non-French allied units.
With the exception of Southern France (see discussion of “Zone Libere” below), Vichy French territory works the same way as other Pro-Axis Neutral territory–i.e., an Axis player may capture Vichy French territory and commandeer its forces by moving a land unit into the territory during the non-combat phase of his turn.
Fly-over restrictions applicable to other Neutral territories do not apply to Vichy French territory.
Fleet at Toulon: In addition to the change in French territorial control, the Armistice changes control of the the French fleet in sz 93, from French to Pro-Axis neutral. The Vichy French fleet maintains a strictly defensive posture. It may not be moved. It may not be captured by the Axis. The fleet is immediately destroyed if any power, other than the Free French, occupies Southern France
“Zone Libre”: Any Axis occupation of Southern France following the Armistice results in disbandment of all Vichy French forces on the map and scuttling of the Vichy French fleet in sz 93. The “Zone Libre” army and fleet will revert back to Free-French control if either: (1) France is liberated by the Allies; or (2) Free-French land forces enter Southern France during the combat-movement phase of France’s turn.
Armistice’s Effect on National Objectives: Vichy French territory is considered “Axis” or “Pro-Axis” controlled for purposes of Italy’s “North Africa” and “Roman Empire” Objectives. Any direct takeover of French Indo China by Japan still negates Japan’s “Trade With America” Objective, even if the territory was already Pro-Axis Neutral.
Liberation of France: The Allied liberation of France effectively terminates the Armistice. Any territory and forces still under Vichy French control (including any surviving fleet in sz 93) revert back to Free French control.
Also, I believe FIC was at least nominally Vichy.
Correct, FIC was definitely Vichy controlled. This was why the Japanese were able to walk in without a declaration of war of any kind. In a nutshell, the Japanese kind of figured that since Germany had defeated France, it more or less had a right as an Axis partner to demand use of bases, etc. in FIC, which turned into effective control of the area honestly.
Point being, if FIC had been Free French, there would have been fighting (potentially, one can never assume these things I suppose), and there would probably have been a cause for war from the rest of the Western/Allied powers.
Thanks for the input folks!
Good point on FIC and Madagascar.
I admit, some liberties were taken for playability’s sake (the objectives for example), and the entire idea is (as in the title) a work in progress.
The Free France China-esque income/placement idea still works with FIC and Madagascar under Vichy control. As does the garrisoning/tribute income idea when Japan walks into Vichy FIC. They would revert to Free France if the Allies ever liberate them as with the rest of the French zones.
I would presume that the French DD off Madagascar would become Vichy as well?
Debating taking the initial Free France infantry spawn in FEA from 1 to 2 with this change.
Also, debating dropping the Vichy objective from 5 IPCs to 4… (it was 6 in its first testing run in answer to the Burma Road amount). Still running with the cruiser survival thing until someone suggests something that sounds more interesting.
As it plays now, it gives the Allies a target to gun for, the Vichy and Italians something to protect, as it’s fairly easy for the Allies to end it forever. As for the name… the name “L’Irremplacable” is a tongue-in-cheek joke (French for “the Irreplaceable” :wink: ). The “Vichy Pride” name is gone though… I was scratching for something, but the new name sounds more apt (in French). I think you’ll agree.
So… with changes, see below.
All starting the instant that Paris falls… the following immediately happens:
Vichy France Spawns
- Vichy France is an Axis power
- All remaining mainland France territories immediately convert to Vichy control
- On the Europe board, the following convert to Vichy control: Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Syria, FWA, FCA, Madagascar.
- On the Pacific board, the following converts to Vichy control: FIC
- French ships in the Med and off Madagascar convert to Vichy control
- Vichy France National Objective: “Delires de Pertinence” - at the end of Vichy’s turn, if the cruiser “L’Irremplacable” survives, Vichy France gains 4 IPC.
- Vichy capital = S France (mIC converts to MIC)
- Restricted production capabilities:
- Air… cannot produce aircraft
- Sea… TR, SS, DD only- Tribute:
- an Axis power to “garrison” land units in a Vichy territory claims tribute worth 1/2 that territory’s IPC value, rounded up. (example: Germany garrisons troops in S France (worth 3 IPC). Vichy gets 2 IPC, and Germany ALSO gets 2 IPC while Germany has troops there)- Vichy France disbands upon the liberation of Paris, never to rise again… all Vichy French territories/units immediately revert to Mainline France
Free France (DeGaulle)
- Free France remains with the Allies
- Free France National Objective: “Vive La Liberte” - At the end of Free France’s turn, if they have three territories or more in Africa, they receive 3 IPC.
- Upon the fall of Paris, the following territory come under Free French control: FEA
- French navy in English Channel are Free French
- French units in London are Free French
- spawn 2 inf in FEA upon the fall of Paris (DeGaulle movement)
- NO production… they purchase/place units as the China mechanic
- Vichy territory liberated by the Allies reverts to Free France
- when Paris is liberated, Vichy is disbanded, and Free France regains it’s status as Mainline France, and regains its pre-fall production capabilities
Adjusted Turn Order
Germany
USSR
Japan
US
China
UK
Italy
ANZAC
Vichy France
Free France
J’aime! Finally! I even have my name in it! Excellent. Time to prepare my men for Equatorial Africa! We must show our disloyal comrades our power! Destroy l’irreplacable cruiser!
Gotta admit, those rules are pretty cool. I especially like: ““Delires de Pertinence” - at the end of Vichy’s turn, if the cruiser “L’Irremplacable” survives, Vichy France gains 4 IPC.”
Too bad there is no way to do that in XML (that i know of).
Also, small point: New Habrides should remain Free French for historical reasons.
so are these rules finalized, is it something the whole community could get on board with?
@Young:
so are these rules finalized, is it something the whole community could get on board with?
I have tried it many times and it is pretty well balanced but I give three infantry to start in FEA. Italy gets a nice little boost In the Mediterranean but has it hard taking Egypt with French mechs constantly going there.
I generally like the ideas you have. I’m having a really hard time getting behind a NO just for a cruiser surviving though. All I keep thinking about is having the Bismarck and Yamato should have the same effect if a French cruiser gets something like that. I understand trying to find an NO for them to use, but as I said, I myself am having a hard time grasping that NO being a cruisers survival.
Also, what does this do to German naval potential in the Med? I know many don’t do it, but I usually build a few subs and a transport out of Southern France. I know others us Yugoslavia for that naval base, but I’ve never wanted to spend the money on a naval base when one is already available (obviously I’m pro Germany taking Southern France over Italy, but that’s another topic :-D). Anyways, this would seem to be something that could greatly weaken the Axis, in the sense that the Allies will know there’s essentially no larger threat in the Med. Maybe that’s your goal, I don’t know, and I’m not necessarily against it given most people’s belief that the out of box game heavily favors the Axis, I’m just curious on your thoughts.
I’m having a really hard time getting behind a NO just for a cruiser surviving though. All I keep thinking about is having the Bismarck and Yamato should have the same effect if a French cruiser gets something like that. I understand trying to find an NO for them to use, but as I said, I myself am having a hard time grasping that NO being a cruisers survival.
I concur. I made a similar point in my post of December 12, in which I said that in my opinion a gain of 5 IPCs for the survival of a cruiser sounds too high. The new name for this national objective, “Delires de Pertinence”, seems oddly enough to reflect this concern because it could be translated as “delusions of relevance.” In other words, it seems to be asking “Why would the survival of a cruiser be relevant to France to a degree sufficiently large for it to be viewed as a national objective on the same scale as (to pick another 5-IPC NO for comparison) 5 IPCs per territory if Axis powers control India (Calcutta), New South Wales (Sydney), Hawaiian Islands (Honolulu) and/or Western United States (San Francisco)?” And as Chris Henry notes, if the survival of a cruiser has that much strategic importance to one country, why wouldn’t the same be true for other warships (especially bigger and more valuable ones) belonging to other countries?
is there any way I’m this rule-set for Germany to take direct control over Southern France once Vichy-France has occurred? Historically, after Allies launched Operation Torch (landing in North Africa) in 1942, Germany occupied Southern France in violation of the Armistice. The Vichy French scuttled the fleet at Toulon and disbanded its armed forces. Seems like there should be a way for that to happen if you’re gonna include a Vichy-France rule set?
Thanks all for the commentary.
Actually, Chris and CWO, I came up with a replacement for the Vichy NO. :) Hopefully it will be a bit better. I like the concept anyway.
First a couple other changes. The factory in S France NO longer automatically converts to a MIC. It remains a mIC. BUT, the Vichy can pay to upgrade it as per normal rules.
If they do, the aircraft build restriction goes away and their NO kicks in. (they still cannot build larger ships than DDs though)
“Delores de Pertinence” - Vichy France gains 5 IPC if they control an operational MIC.
This is untested as yet, but presents Vichy with some interesting choices. Ability to build fighters and bombers and 5 IPC, vs spending money to shore up European shores as it were.
Also remember the term “operational”. The Allies can shut off this NO if they bomb the factory into rubble, making it a potential money sink. Also a spot to move AA guns into if you’re a German or Italian player wanting to garrison the place.
But, to answer YG, it’s getting close to finalized. Just gotta test the recent changes a bit more.
Chris, with regard to potential to weaken the Axis, I kinda disagree.
The addition of the Vichy takes a huge weight off the Italians to hammer the British.
While yes, the Germans would have to find another place to build subs in the Med due to non-control of the S France factory, the Vichy taking the burden of stocking the Normandy coast etc with cannon fodder allows Germany to use that money elsewhere.
At least in test games that I’ve done…
Or, you could just hit Normandy and S France on G1, strafe Paris in force, and let the Italians have sloppy seconds on I1. But that would be more detrimental than good for the Axis, IMHO. Leaving Vichy Africa etc no method to self sustain… and, frankly, against the spirit of the idea of having Vichy in the game in the first place.
Interesting. As I said, I obviously have not played your version, so you’d know better than I, but I was just curious on your thoughts on that.
I’ve had versions where I still allowed the Germans to build naval units out of Southern France, but that would count towards the unit max that Vichy could build there as well.
I’m curious, and maybe I missed this earlier in the thread, so sorry if I did, but what happens to the Axis NO of holding Southern France/Greece/Egypt/Gibraltar? Does this just automatically count still or did you remove this NO?
I’m also curious if you’ve considered allowing Free French units to build in England as well, as sort of a add-on to the China spawn rule?
It does look interesting. I may have to try it. Though as CW Marc and myself pointed out, I may change the cruiser NO. I might do it more as a “if Vichy controls at least X amount of their overseas territory”. Maybe three, with North Africa being the reasonable three to choose to hold. It would make them want to make sure it’s garrisoned to keep that NO alive.
I’m not sure i see the point of adding a Vichy-France mod for ‘greater historicality,’ while omitting anyway for Germany to take direct control of southern france (i.e., to violate the armistice and forfeit its benefits). That was, after all, the historical outcome of the whole Vichy France episode. It should at least be possible in any mod that seeks to simulate the Vichy France aspect of the war, IMHO
Interesting. As I said, I obviously have not played your version, so you’d know better than I, but I was just curious on your thoughts on that.
I’ve had versions where I still allowed the Germans to build naval units out of Southern France, but that would count towards the unit max that Vichy could build there as well.
I’m curious, and maybe I missed this earlier in the thread, so sorry if I did, but what happens to the Axis NO of holding Southern France/Greece/Egypt/Gibraltar? Does this just automatically count still or did you remove this NO?
I’m also curious if you’ve considered allowing Free French units to build in England as well, as sort of a add-on to the China spawn rule?
It does look interesting. I may have to try it. Though as CW Marc and myself pointed out, I may change the cruiser NO. I might do it more as a “if Vichy controls at least X amount of their overseas territory”. Maybe three, with North Africa being the reasonable three to choose to hold. It would make them want to make sure it’s garrisoned to keep that NO alive.
Actually - I did change the cruiser NO, but you may have missed the post about it. :)
Actually, Chris and CWO, I came up with a replacement for the Vichy NO. :) Hopefully it will be a bit better. I like the concept anyway.
First a couple other changes. The factory in S France NO longer automatically converts to a MIC. It remains a mIC. BUT, the Vichy can pay to upgrade it as per normal rules.
If they do, the aircraft build restriction goes away and their NO kicks in. (they still cannot build larger ships than DDs though)
“Delores de Pertinence” - Vichy France gains 5 IPC if they control an operational MIC.
This is untested as yet, but presents Vichy with some interesting choices. Ability to build fighters and bombers and 5 IPC, vs spending money to shore up European shores as it were.
Also remember the term “operational”. The Allies can shut off this NO if they bomb the factory into rubble, making it a potential money sink. Also a spot to move AA guns into if you’re a German or Italian player wanting to garrison the place.
Also, a potential strategy option that just dawned on me is that Vichy could conceivably build an mIC in FIC to pump out infantry/etc as well into SE Asia fight, aiding the Japanese (if you so choose)… I had also considered a Vichy Syria mIC build, but my buddy saw that in our test games and squashed Syria ASAP. But, that was before the FIC correction was made. (thanks BTW)
As for the Axis NO involving control of S France etc, Vichy counts as an Axis power, so no disruption there.
The Free French option to build in London is an intriguing idea that hadn’t occurred to me. My view I guess is that the French units in London were more refugees than anything, and that the Brits were having enough trouble finding their own men to fight. Whereas the African spawn guys are part of DeGaulle’s resistance growing. Maybe a limit of one infantry a round option in London (French expatriates supportive of DeGaulle?) could be workable.
The German “commandeering” of production capacity idea is interesting as well… I would say that if another Axis power is garrisoning the Vichy territory with the factory in question, they could produce one unit there a turn (but only of the types that the Vichy is capable to produce - eg. no ships bigger than DDs, and no aircraft unless the Vichy have upgraded their factory in S France)
I should do another update post rolling up the ruleset as it currently stands with the NO change, and potentially the commandeered production and London expatriate options.
