Italy taking London?! Now I’m intrigued! That sounds crazy awesome. Have no idea how it could work. A risky move, no doubt. Like letting Italy clean up Paris after Germany does the dirty work. I’m a big fan of non traditional strategies.
Sealion Version 1.0
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Corrected map
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Game I played Germany did not commit all aircraft to sea battles so UK was able to attack German fleet with CV, Tac, 3 Fighters, DD.
Germany also did not buy SS only CV + TT’s. UK rolled fairly well and so Germany was left with BB (dmg) and UK 1 fighter.
Germany did not Sealion (I realize now UK was wide open). Italian fleet was untouched and dominated the Med. Allies gave up when Russia was reduced to Moscow. (Axis one victory city short)
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UK counter, version 1
UK1 builds: 2x Tactical Bomber
UK1 attacks: none concerning operation Sealion
UK1 moves: tactical bomber from carrier to the UK, Gibralter fleet remains stationary
UK1 placements: 2x tactical bomber in the UKUK2 attacks: Gibraltar fleet + UK air-force attack SZ112
The battle!
UK: carrier + destroyer + 3x fighter + 3x tactical bomber
Versus
Germany: submarine + carrier + cruiser + tactical bomber + fighter + battleship
Round 1: UK scores 23 pips = 4 hits v. Germany scores 17 pips = 3 hits
Losses: UK carrier + destroyer v. German submarine + cruiser + 2 damaged capital shipsRound 2: UK scores 21 pips = 3 hits v. Germany scores 13 pips = 2 hits
Losses: UK fighter + tactical bomber v. German carrier + fighter + tactical bomberRound 3: UK scores 14 pips = 2 hits v. Germany scores 4 pips = 1 hit
Losses: UK tactical bomber v. German battleship … all transports are sunk as wellAlternatively Germany can pull back the fleet to SZ113, but that allows the UK to place an easy block to delay Sealion for at least one extra turn … opening the way for more possible UK and/or US intervention and unchecked Soviet aggression in the East.
Germany can also move the cruiser to block in SZ 104 to keep the Gibraltar fleet out of it. The UK air-force can still attack the German fleet and will still win, but with more losses as well.
:evil:
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jim010,
As UK (w/o knowing you planned on buying 9 TT’s) most would not feel threatened by Sea Lion (1 German TT) and take out the Italian navy (I figure your counting on this). There is the possibility (maybe 33%) to attack the fairly weak German Navy in sz 112 instead (would at least consider it then SEA Lion would be a no go, but Italians would have a big advantage in the Med until US comes over). On UK1 I would most likely buy 2 air units for England (ftr & tac) and 2 inf (looking to attack German fleet next turn or or push them back). The Germans most likely would feel obligated to attack the UK Med fleet w/air G2 (could lose a 1-2 air units though) to keep the UK from finishing off the Italians. Now if I have 5 air units on UK (and most the Italian fleet sunk), you can’t buy just 9 TT’s, you have to maybe buy a carrier to protect them (or a couple DD’s still $16 ipc’s). So now you can only buy 6 TT’s + the 2 you have is 8 all together (can still bring over 16 ground units ouch). On UK’s turn it could still attack the German fleet, but odds are very low w/carrier build. UK forgoes the fleet attack, brings over the Canadians (if it didn’t already), and buys 10 inf (could buy 7 inf & DD to stop bombardment I guess not sure what would be better, but will figure 10 inf build). It now has 16 ground units, 5 air units + the AA gun. German has the 16 ground units, 5-6 air units (assuming it lost 2-3 in the Med or original UK navy onslaught), + bombardment. Jim010 I don’t have an odds calculator, what is the % for Germany to win this battle (I still think its pretty high) and what would Germany have on England when the dust clears.I have 2 questions
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How does Germany handle a very powerful Russia if it does go through with SEA Lion (all fleet). Normally as Russia seeing German fleet builds I would start building some air units as well as a ton of ground. By time Germany & Russia is at war the Russian air force would be bigger. When Germany goes for the kill on UK I would also build a couple subs in the Baltic (maybe in sz 127 as well just in case). So it would be hard to get that fairly weak German fleet back to a Russian coast line w/o even more German ship builds. Russia w/air & subs can be quite effective, especially if it builds those subs when Germany is out of range w/o DD’s.
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The USA will be coming. If you are successful w/Sea Lion, how long will you be able to def England, and the European coast line considering you haven’t bought many ground units. The ground units you do buy will have their hands full with Russia. Anything Italy manages to take in Africa (French or UK tt) will become US income down the road. The US will be poised in the Atlantic ready willing and able. At some point in the near future all those transports will end up in Davy Jones Locker by US, or Soviet hands (or both).
I just think that losing UK is over rated. By time this happens there are 2 more powers that will take its place in E40. Then its a 2 vs 2 game, and Germany is spread pretty thin. As long as UK goes down kicking and screaming, and manages to take German units with it the allies still have a chance if they are ready for it.
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UK counter, version 1
UK1 builds: 2x Tactical Bomber
UK1 attacks: none concerning operation Sealion
UK1 moves: tactical bomber from carrier to the UK, Gibralter fleet remains stationary
UK1 placements: 2x tactical bomber in the UKUK2 attacks: Gibraltar fleet + UK air-force attack SZ112
The battle!
UK: carrier + destroyer + 3x fighter + 3x tactical bomber
Versus
Germany: submarine + carrier + cruiser + tactical bomber + fighter + battleship
Round 1: UK scores 23 pips = 4 hits v. Germany scores 17 pips = 3 hits
Losses: UK carrier + destroyer v. German submarine + cruiser + 2 damaged capital shipsRound 2: UK scores 21 pips = 3 hits v. Germany scores 13 pips = 2 hits
Losses: UK fighter + tactical bomber v. German carrier + fighter + tactical bomberRound 3: UK scores 14 pips = 2 hits v. Germany scores 4 pips = 1 hit
Losses: UK tactical bomber v. German battleship … all transports are sunk as wellAlternatively Germany can pull back the fleet to SZ113, but that allows the UK to place an easy block to delay Sealion for at least one extra turn … opening the way for more possible UK and/or US intervention and unchecked Soviet aggression in the East.
Germany can also move the cruiser to block in SZ 104 to keep the Gibraltar fleet out of it. The UK air-force can still attack the German fleet and will still win, but with more losses as well.
:evil:
Nice counter!!! Seems like the only thing Germany could do is buy a crusier on G1 instead of the TT and sub- giving UK1 battle in z112 a 21-19 edge- a 50/50 nailbiter for sure!!!
So is the best UK can hope for is this 50/50 battle!!! Win it and UK is a hero, lose it and Churchill needs to pack for Canada.
If Germany loses this battle, is it over for Germany???- maybe not, those 9 or so TT can come in handy on the Russian front by G4-just in time for DOW.
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Germany foil to UK1 counter version 1
Attack SZ 106 with 1 sub ( UK has 1 DD) 2 vs. 2. 40.6% to 39.5% ( you can also bring sub to SZ 109 and get better odds, but take the bomber to SZ 111)
Attack SZ 109 1 Bomber vs. 1 DD ,4 vs. 2. 55.4% to 14% ( both die at 30.6%), alternatively: 1 SS and 1 fighter vs 1 DD ( 92.3% vs. 3.8%)
Attack SZ 110 2 subs, 1 tactical, 1 fighter, 1 bomber vs. 1 BB, 1 DD ( should win) 99.5%
Attack SZ 111 2 subs, 1 tactical, 1 Fighter, vs. 1 BB, 1 CA ( should win) 85.7%
Attack SZ 112 1 BB, 1 tactical, 1 Fighter vs 2 CA ( should win hit on BB) 89%
Key Move: CA blocks UK Gibraltar fleet in SZ 104!
Notes:
The cruiser block in SZ makes my BB and CV with 2 fighters protected against 3-4 of his fighters attacking on UK1 I win 80% versus his 20%If you build anything or attack my CA, its defeated on G2
If you try to block a G2 sealion on UK west coast, we just swing over to east coast and invade other side.
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UK counter, version 1
UK1 builds: 2x Tactical Bomber
UK1 attacks: none concerning operation Sealion
UK1 moves: tactical bomber from carrier to the UK, Gibralter fleet remains stationary
UK1 placements: 2x tactical bomber in the UKUK2 attacks: Gibraltar fleet + UK air-force attack SZ112
The battle!
UK: carrier + destroyer + 3x fighter + 3x tactical bomber
Versus
Germany: submarine + carrier + cruiser + tactical bomber + fighter + battleship
Round 1: UK scores 23 pips = 4 hits v. Germany scores 17 pips = 3 hits
Losses: UK carrier + destroyer v. German submarine + cruiser + 2 damaged capital shipsRound 2: UK scores 21 pips = 3 hits v. Germany scores 13 pips = 2 hits
Losses: UK fighter + tactical bomber v. German carrier + fighter + tactical bomberRound 3: UK scores 14 pips = 2 hits v. Germany scores 4 pips = 1 hit
Losses: UK tactical bomber v. German battleship … all transports are sunk as wellAlternatively Germany can pull back the fleet to SZ113, but that allows the UK to place an easy block to delay Sealion for at least one extra turn … opening the way for more possible UK and/or US intervention and unchecked Soviet aggression in the East.
Germany can also move the cruiser to block in SZ 104 to keep the Gibraltar fleet out of it. The UK air-force can still attack the German fleet and will still win, but with more losses as well.
:evil:
Nice counter!!! Seems like the only thing Germany could do is buy a crusier on G1 instead of the TT and sub- giving UK1 battle in z113 a 21-19 edge- a 50/50 nailbiter for sure!!!
So is the best UK can hope for is this 50/50 battle!!! Win it and UK is a hero, lose it and Churchill needs to pack for Canada.
If Germany loses this battle, is it over for Germany???- maybe not, those 9 or so TT can come in handy on the Russian front by G4-just in time for DOW.
You would have the choice as UK of attacking sz 112 now, or building air to go at it UK2. If UK attacks sz 112 UK1 the Sea Lion threat may be over if the German starting navy is at the bottom. The UK can bring the carrier in to absorb hits and kill the fleet w/dd & air UK1 (this lets the Italians off the hook). You could just sit back and build air units to take on the Germans UK2 (that’s what I would do). The Germans would be forced to buy more fleet, and fewer tpts.
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UK counter, version 1
UK1 builds: 2x Tactical Bomber
UK1 attacks: none concerning operation Sealion
UK1 moves: tactical bomber from carrier to the UK, Gibralter fleet remains stationary
UK1 placements: 2x tactical bomber in the UKUK2 attacks: Gibraltar fleet + UK air-force attack SZ112
The battle!
UK: carrier + destroyer + 3x fighter + 3x tactical bomber
Versus
Germany: submarine + carrier + cruiser + tactical bomber + fighter + battleship
Round 1: UK scores 23 pips = 4 hits v. Germany scores 17 pips = 3 hits
Losses: UK carrier + destroyer v. German submarine + cruiser + 2 damaged capital shipsRound 2: UK scores 21 pips = 3 hits v. Germany scores 13 pips = 2 hits
Losses: UK fighter + tactical bomber v. German carrier + fighter + tactical bomberRound 3: UK scores 14 pips = 2 hits v. Germany scores 4 pips = 1 hit
Losses: UK tactical bomber v. German battleship … all transports are sunk as wellAlternatively Germany can pull back the fleet to SZ113, but that allows the UK to place an easy block to delay Sealion for at least one extra turn … opening the way for more possible UK and/or US intervention and unchecked Soviet aggression in the East.
Germany can also move the cruiser to block in SZ 104 to keep the Gibraltar fleet out of it. The UK air-force can still attack the German fleet and will still win, but with more losses as well.
:evil:
Nice counter!!! Seems like the only thing Germany could do is buy a crusier on G1 instead of the TT and sub- giving UK1 battle in z112 a 21-19 edge- a 50/50 nailbiter for sure!!!
So is the best UK can hope for is this 50/50 battle!!! Win it and UK is a hero, lose it and Churchill needs to pack for Canada.
If Germany loses this battle, is it over for Germany???- maybe not, those 9 or so TT can come in handy on the Russian front by G4-just in time for DOW.
The z104 block definitely makes the odds worse for Germany- won’t work- period.
After looking at this in detail on the board, the BEST Germany can do is buy a CV and CA (instead of the SS and TT) in G1 to place on z112.
There is a way to rotate the subs in their respective battles so that you can get a sub to z112. In that case, Germany has a SS,BB 2CA and 1CV with 2ftrs= 21 hits pts. vs. UK with 3tac, 3ftrs, 1CV, 1DD= 23 hit pts. Germany has 2 double hit ships, UK has only 1. This literally makes this battle on z112 in UK1 a 50/50 battle!!!
The success of Sealion solely rests on a coinflip in z112 on UK1!!!
Now the questions arise:
1. If Germany wins, Sealion succeeds and will it be over for the Allies??? or can they still come back. Germany will have $$$ and so will Italy since UK had to use the Med force to stop Sealion.
2. If UK wins, is it over for Germany??? They may be able to swing those 10TT the other way and pound Russia instead.
In either case, one is very tempted to pull the Sealion trigger if they are playing Germany. Its definitely a gambit, one that can pay off good dividends for the Axis.
In Global, if Sealion succeeds, now the US has to pull in more money on the Euro side than it wants to. That’s great news for Japan who would like to overrun the Pacific. If I’m Japan and Sealion succeeds, I either continue to plow towards India or attack the Hawaiian Islands to make the US indecisive with how to spend its cash. US spending and moving effieciently is a key to winning for the Allies in all AA games.
This stuff really makes you think.
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questioneer, when you give the UK a 50/50 chance of winning the sz112 battle (UK2) you are not taking into account that Germany gets to add to its navy G2 first (has 64 ipc’s). It could easily build another carrier (w/2 existing ftrs), and build only 6 tpts, it would still have 8 tpt’s altogether (bringing 16 ground units).
The UK starts the game w/29 ipc’s, it could also build a sub (would be safe), along with the two tacs UK1 to better its chances at sea. The UK could still attack the German fleet in sz 112 (UK2), but the odds would be much lower (depending on what Germany adds). So UK2, do they now add as much inf as possible in case the sea battle goes bad. They could hit the German navy UK2, and if the first round goes well continue, if not land their surviving air units on England to def the shore line w/inf. At least you forced Germany to build more fleet protection and fewer tpts.
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and buying that many planes would allow germany to take UK with around 6-7 transports, at the most, being needed. And transports don’t fight back, I’d rather face a german fleet with 11 transports than 10 destroyers as the US.
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There is a way to rotate the subs in their respective battles so that you can get a sub to z112. In that case, Germany has a SS,BB 2CA and 1CV with 2ftrs= 21 hits pts. vs. UK with 3tac, 3ftrs, 1CV, 1DD= 23 hit pts. Germany has 2 double hit ships, UK has only 1. This literally makes this battle on z112 in UK1 a 50/50 battle!!!
Yea but is the German CA blocks out the British in SZ 104 as outlined, they cant use ANY ships on UK 1 to attack the Main German fleet off Denmark. All they can do is pile up adjacent during NCM, then get sunk on G2. The other UK ships in reach are sunk as well.
Just concentrate on killing the UK naval around UK and you got it made.
All UK can do is attack the Main German fleet with 4 planes and against a CV, BB, and 2 fighters that wont happen.
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yes, all 3 of you are correct- sorry forgot about G2.
What is the best UK can do to defend UK then??
Is 8 TT enoungh for Germany??? Assuming UK attacks or partial attacks at z112 otherwise its coming with 11-12TTSo then, Sealion is solved it will happen???
Now the question arises:
Not if but when Germany wins at z112, Sealion succeeds and will it be over for the Allies??? or can they still come back. Germany will have $$$ and so will Italy since UK had to use the Med force to stop Sealion.
In Global, if Sealion succeeds, now the US has to pull in more money on the Euro side than it wants to. That’s great news for Japan who would like to overrun the Pacific. If I’m Japan and Sealion succeeds, I either continue to plow towards India or attack the Hawaiian Islands to make the US indecisive with how to spend its cash. US spending and moving effieciently is a key to winning for the Allies in all AA games.
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If the UK plays defensively it can most likely prevent Sealion in G2, but it comes at the cost being very passive in all other areas of the board. If Germany keeps pouring in all IPC’s and/or units, Sealion will be basicly impossible to stop for the UK during G3 and later.
So I’ll just go for building just enough to stall a G2 Sealion, put all efforts into other fronts, accept that Sealion will succeed in G3 and concentrate on containing Italy (which shouldn’t be that hard). The US and Soviets are more than enough to handle Germany.
So instead of reacting to Germany, the UK should be acting against Italy!
8-)
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If the UK plays defensively it can most likely prevent Sealion in G2, but it comes at the cost being very passive in all other areas of the board. If Germany keeps pouring in all IPC’s and/or units, Sealion will be basicly impossible to stop for the UK during G3 and later.
So I’ll just go for building just enough to stall a G2 Sealion, put all efforts into other fronts, accept that Sealion will succeed in G3 and concentrate on containing Italy (which shouldn’t be that hard). The US and Soviets are more than enough to handle Germany.
So instead of reacting to Germany, the UK should be acting against Italy!
8-)
I’ll have to study the possible Round 2 options for all countries at this point. It looks like Sealion can be a sealed deal at G3 if not G2. Of course things get more complicated for playtesting purposes because with each successive round there are even more variations.
We just need several of us to playtest (not jabberjaw about hypotheticals) with what jim010 started and tweek it to see if his analysis holds true- by the math, is seems like a foregone conclusion.
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On UK 1 they build 9 Infantry
On UK2 they build another 10+ infantry
That gives them 21 plus any that might come over from Canada ( Tank and Infantry)
and 4 planes.
How can Germany invade on G3 with that defending?
The only chance is G2.
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how about for UK1 they build two fighters and three men and land the tac from Gib on London?. its a bonus if they get the Canuck armor and troop
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G1 build CV, DD, SS.
Most efficient defense with ipcs available.But…
If UK builds 20 inf (over first two turns) + 2 Inf + inf/tank (from Canada) + Gilb Tac + 3 fighters (11 hits 1st round) + whatever aa gun does
Germany can maybe still take it with 9 inf, 4 Art, 5 Tanks, 6-8 fighters/Tac, 1 Bomb + 1 hit from BB 1st round. (11 hits 1st round) but it is too close to risk.
So Germany must build 2 TT’s round 1 and use the CA to block Gilb fleet.
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Don’t forget the 1 inf, 1 arm, 1 fig from alexandria that can get up there. 8-)
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Don’t forget the 1 inf, 1 arm, 1 fig from alexandria that can get up there. 8-)
That’s something I don’t think I’ve heard before. They have the movement points to get to England in two turns. Could they (tpt w/ground troops) get through the Med though? They would have to be in sz 92 end of UK1. Sz 92 is not exactly safe from the axis.
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Thats why G2 sealion if the only viable option.
The Labrador DD and AP can be sunk, with one SS ( coin flip admittedly)
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