Germany built a carrier in the Med to help protect the Italian transports, and later received Italian aircraft aboard. Now, the Soviets at the beginning of the R4 combat movement have the option to declare war on any or all Axis powers. They choose to DOW only on Germany. After that they move their aircraft to attack the sea zone with the German carrier in it, along with the Italian planes and any other naval units that happen to be there. Is it not that only the German navy fights? Italians are still not at war with the Soviets! Now, if the carrier is damaged and Soviets retreat (or are destroyed), what happens to the Italian air? I know it has been said repeatedly that only attacking foreign planes may be trapped inside a carrier, but how to resolve this situation?
Aircraft from another country are normally treated as cargo when they are on board another power’s aircraft carrier, but that is usually on the carrier owner’s turn. Defending carriers are another story:
Pacific Rulebook:
Air Defense: Whenever an undamaged carrier is attacked, its aircraft (even those belonging to friendly powers) are considered to be defending in the air and can be chosen as casualties rather than the carrier. However, aircraft on a carrier cannot be chosen as a casualty from a submarine hit, because submarines can attack only sea units
Air units based on a defending carrier must land on the same carrier if possible after the battle. If that carrier is destroyed or damaged in combat, they must try to land on a different friendly carrier in the same sea zone, move one space to a friendly carrier or territory, or be destroyed. This movement occurs during the Noncombat Movement phase, before the acting player makes any noncombat movements.
But since Italy is not at war with Russia in this scenario, you raise an interesting point.
The real question here is if attacking cargo is seen as a declaration of war or just an unfortunate loss. If the Sea Zone contained all Italian ships and a single German carrier, then it was a very clever plan to strafe the carrier with only a DOW against Germany.
Must you declare war on a power if you attack a ship that is carrying that power’s planes? Do the Italian fighters launch as normal but then not attack the Russian planes?
This applies to transports, but here is Krieg’s ruling on those:
@Krieghund:
Of course the Soviet units die - they are cargo. Germany need not declare war on the USSR in order to attack UK ships. The Soviets take their chances when they board a ship that’s in danger of being sunk by an enemy.
I’m still looking for more and digging up older threads.
EDIT: Rewrote some confusing and incorrect bits.
Aircraft from another country are treated as cargo when they are on board another power’s aircraft carrier. In this case the Soviets combat move into the sea zone and only battle German units. Even if Italy and Russia were at war the aircraft do not take part in the fight.
I think (sic) that when everybody’s at war all the units defend together, including the planes naturally. The question is whether the aircraft on a defending carrier are treated as cargo when neutral or they still launch (even if not taking part in the battle - “sort it out among yourselves guys, we’re off”). In the latter case, they should have their one space wiggle room to land if the carrier is rendered unavailable.
Must you declare war on a power if you attack a ship that is merely carrying that ship’s cargo?
Yes, in general what if/can you sink (ships with some) cargo of a power that you are not at war with?
Great question, EG and I believe I have your answer
Once again the answer is in the sidebar on page 15 (Europe).
Combat: A power can’t attack a territory controlled by or containing units belonging to a power with which it is not at war. If a power at war attacks a sea zone containing units belonging to both a power with which it’s already at war and a power with which it’s not at war, the latter power’s units ARE IGNORED. Those units WON’T PARTICIPATE in the battle in ANY WAY, and a state of war with that power will NOT RESULT.
Emphasis added
So the Italian fighters are ignored, and if the German carrier is even DAMAGED the Italian fighters CANNOT LAND back on that carrier, because they would be defending in the air. Trapped fighters only occur when a carrier is ATTACKING and has friendly air aboard as cargo.
The Russians can wail on the German carrier and displace the Italian fighters, and the Italian fighters (very oddly) will just fly around watching. Then they have one space to land, and in the Med they would usually have a safe place to land.
Great question, EG and I believe I have your answer
Once again the answer is in the sidebar on page 15 (Europe).
Combat: A power can’t attack a territory controlled by or containing units belonging to a power with which it is not at war. If a power at war attacks a sea zone containing units belonging to both a power with which it’s already at war and a power with which it’s not at war, the latter power’s units ARE IGNORED. Those units WON’T PARTICIPATE in the battle in ANY WAY, and a state of war with that power will NOT RESULT.Emphasis added
So the Italian fighters are ignored, and if the German carrier is even DAMAGED the Italian fighters CANNOT LAND back on that carrier, because they would be defending in the air. Trapped fighters only occur when a carrier is ATTACKING and has friendly air aboard as cargo.
The Russians can wail on the German carrier and displace the Italian fighters, and the Italian fighters (very oddly) will just fly around watching. Then they have one space to land, and in the Med they would usually have a safe place to land.
But are the Italian planes even in the air? I thought that planes only need to land if they are engaged in the battle. If Italy were at war with Russia they would be on combat air patrol and would take part, but without a DOW on Italy don’t they stay on the carrier? If the carrier is damaged with the Italians on board, then the planes would be trapped as cargo until the carrier is repaired, no? Very good question.
BTW maybe you guys in Croatia could play online with TripleA? Finding face to face players is hard.
@Cmdr:
@Cmdr:
The unlikely part of this scenario, Jenn, is that Germany would run into a wall of 15-18 Russian Infantry along the way. Not much opportunity to blitz…
Hmm, yes, if Germany decided to go from west to east over Mongolia.�� I was thinking more in tandem with a Japanese push through China.�� More of an “after the fact” move.�� Japan takes China and Germany drives through to Manchuria and then up and over.��Â
Not saying this is a good move, but it’s got a certain psychological impact on an opponent, at least the first time s/he sees it.
Considering most people stagger instead of stack, I could see where Jen is making her point, especially if you use the Japan AF to blow away 6-7 inf in one attack.�Â
You could use the air force for that, and I do that quite often on Indian or Chinese stacks (as strategically necessary, of course) but I am thinking more of running your tanks into China.Â
Course, I didnt think of clearing the Russians out with the Air force. Even with that idea, I’d say China is better, otherwise, you drag Russian infantry back to the east (which maybe is what you want?)
I think by the time your Germans get out there, the Chinese should be crippled as it is.
I believe Krieghund has said that the ONLY time fighters could be trapped is on attacking carriers.
Therefore, as per page 29, “when an undamaged carrier is attacked, its aircraft (even those belonging to friendly powers) are considered to be defending in the air…”
There is no distinction made for powers not at war with each other. We have to be careful guessing what the rules should be based on what makes sense. The rules never mention “combat air patrol”, for example.
Besides, the Italians are at war with the UK and would be on the lookout for them, right?
Of course the Soviet units die - they are cargo. Germany need not declare war on the USSR in order to attack UK ships. The Soviets take their chances when they board a ship that’s in danger of being sunk by an enemy.
The Russians can wail on the German carrier and displace the Italian fighters, and the Italian fighters (very oddly) will just fly around watching. Then they have one space to land, and in the Med they would usually have a safe place to land.
Ok, thanks zane and Gamerman, I guess it settles it. The planes certainly (I believe now) have to take off prior to combat, even though they do not take part in it. Great, now solve this one:
Japan attacks the Soviet Union early and they respond by sending off planes to a British carrier off the coast of India (the Brits are also at war with Japan one way or the other). They can get there in two turns. British captain then decides to steam towards Egypt, oblivious to the fact that the Euro Axis are still honoring the non-aggression deal with Stalin. The Brits are thus ferrying the Soviets who should not be there in the first place (totally neutral on that half of the world). If a Euro Axis power attacks that British convoy, the Soviets are in a quandary: if they take off (and it seems they must), they can never return, even if the carrier survives intact! “Frightfully sorry lads, your ticket expired half the way across from Bombay.” Their only hope is a slim chance of finding a piece of Russian soil (or a carrier!) nearby…
Is the British player even allowed to do this, take the Red air force to the no-hope zone, without their approval?
A) England may go to war with Japan any time they bloody well feel like it! Stupid Japanese…with they would go SODDING off!! (okay, that’s all my british metaphors, think I got em all anyway…)
B) Interesting scenario. Not really sure I’d ever get to that point, since technically,
1) I’d be abandoning Russia to the Germans, the only strafing equipment they have are the two fights and tactical bomber
2) I’d have to fly the darn things towards Japan which would telegraph my attack plan
3) I’d have to abandon India to build the sodding carrier, no? I guess not, I guess I could in theory retreat from the Med or build one off the coast of S. Africa…
Hmm…now UI wanna do a KJF!
The Brits are thus ferrying the Soviets who should not be there in the first place (totally neutral on that half of the world).
This came up before and I believe they ruled that a British carrier loaded with Soviet planes on the Pacific map isn’t allowed to move onto the Europe map until the Soviet planes leave the carrier or Soviets at war in Europe. So this situation can’t occur.
The original example might have been Soviet infantry on a UK transport crossing the map boundary, but the principle is the same.
If italy DoW on russia and takes a russian territory, is it possible for germany to non-com into that new italian terr. with out being at war with russia himself? Or is it when italy DoW on russia, germany is automatically at war with russia aswell?
If italy DoW on russia and takes a russian territory, is it possible for germany to non-com into that new italian terr. with out being at war with russia himself? Or is it when italy DoW on russia, germany is automatically at war with russia aswell?
Germany can reinforce Italian territories regardless of who originally controlled that territory. Germany does not need to be at war with the original owner.
I would still like krieg’s opinion though.
Kcdzim is (as nearly always) correct.
Please clarify the US NO’s “• 5 IPCs for each turn that the US has at least one land unit in the territory “France”. Theme: Great Alliance collaboration”
For example, if France is liberated by US and axis takes France back after two turns and axis keeps France for the remaining game.
Will US get 10 IPC each turn the rest of the game from this NO? (2 turn in France x 5 IPC = 10 IPC)
No, you check France during USA collect income phase. If there is a USA ground unit in France at that time, USA gets 5 IPC’s. Check again next USA turn.
I forgot the rules for global. I got a lone transport he got a lone sub, I can’t amphib assault right? I can ship men non combat though right? If I have an escort I can ignore the sub? do fighters count?
@Cow:
I forgot the rules for global. I got a lone transport he got a lone sub, I can’t amphib assault right? I can ship men non combat though right? If I have an escort I can ignore the sub? do fighters count?
You can’t amphibious assault with transports alone when an enemy sub is in the zone you wish to offload from. You only need a single escorting warship (a sub counts) to amphibious assault from that zone.
Yes, this only applies to combat movement, so you could ignore subs in non-combat with transports alone.
No, fighters don’t count because they’re not warships.
Question : Can a mech paired with a tank move into unoccupied enemy territory, then move into another unoccupied enemy territory w/out the tank? Or, does the mech and tank have to be paired the whole time for the mech to blitz into two different unoccupied enemy territories?
Question : Can a mech paired with a tank move into unoccupied enemy territory, then move into another unoccupied enemy territory w/out the tank? Or, does the mech and tank have to be paired the whole time for the mech to blitz into two different unoccupied enemy territories?
They must start and end together
See replies #3069 and #3070
