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[Cromwell_Dude]

.

[ABWorsham4]

The War between the States was the single event besides the First Revolution. It must be remembered and celebrated.

[Witt]

Hi guys. I agree you cannot not commemorate those two wars.
I love the idea of reenactments, but understand feelings between some parts of your two sections may still be angry and such events could bring an occasion like this into disrepute.
That would be sad and wrong.
I am sure you know here in England the November 11th WW1 celebrations are somber affairs and I believe that works. Maybe it is still to near the present to be done any other way: until recently we had some survivors.
Is not an easy one to call, but I can assure you that if I could I would make one of the celebrations. Next year will be the 150th anniversary of Gettysburg.
Perhaps I will meet you(and others) in April 2015!

[LHoffman]

This is a part of our history, if you are an American, and it certainly should be commemorated. It was the most harrowing and deadly struggle that we have endured as a nation and one which served to shape us even more, perhaps, than the Second World War did. To simply ignore it because it involved slavery would be a great disservice. For the most part, this day in age, people in the South and people in the North can come together without hate and resentment for each other and honor the past. Sure, there will be idiots who wave the stars and bars while chanting for a renewal of secession, we may always have those people. The KKK still exists but we celebrate black history and the civil rights movement every year.

Anyway, to answer your posed questions:

1. Yes, we should celebrate through commemoration. I do not think it should be or would be “festive”, as in carnival rides and drinking, but respectful and entertaining at the same time.

2. Yes. Considering a major anniversary of this event will not come for another 50 years, I think it is really a shame that the president is not doing more. How? Perhaps calling for the organization of a re-enactment, a conference/large on site commemoration… something. We cannot neglect the remembrance of our past, no matter how painful, lest we forget who we are.

[CWO Marc]

@MidnightExpress:

I would consider it more appropriate to observe the end of this conflict rather than the beginning, or other periods. Half a million dead Americans is cause for rememberance, not celebration.

Good point.  This is essentially the idea expressed by the Unity Monument at Bennett Place Historic Site, whose plaque reads in part:

“This monument thus marks the spot where the military force of the United States of America finally triumphed and established as inviolate the principle of an indissoluble union. It marks also the spot of the last stand of the Confederacy in maintaining its ideal of indestructible states - an ideal which, preserved to the American union by virtue of the heroic fight, grows in strength from year to year.”

http://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WMC11_Unity_Monument_Bennett_Place_Historic_Site_Durham_North_Car

[Gargantua]

Most Americans today are a debt-enslaved people, who are ruled by the corrupt, living in a system that chews them up and spits them out. People who are often without hope, and whose cries fall on deaf ears.

IN MY PERSONAL OPINION: The best way to commemorate this event, would be to start another civil war, based on the same core principles as the last two. Even Thomas Jefferson would agree with me.

Naturally, a bloodless “quiet revolution” would be preferrable but lets face the facts that it’s much less likely.

*With all that said - the reason that “Presidents” past don’t want this event commemorated, celebrated, OR remembered, is because they DON’T WANT like minded rebellious people, like myself, getting together, and talking about how things “Could have been” and how things “Could be now”, and how if our forefathers stood up and fought against tyranny we could too.

Civil War is ugly folks. VERY UGLY. Take a look at Syria today… and then take the pains to realize that you can’t -really- blame any president who’s making efforts to stop people from dividing themselves over 150 year old differences.  Even with my outlandish opinions - I totally understand this disposition.

Oh… and Thomas J just phoned me and had the following things to say:

“The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive.”

“If once the people become inattentive to the public affairs, you and I, and Congress and Assemblies, Judges and Governors, shall all become wolves. It seems to be the law of our general nature, in spite of individual exceptions.”

“Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms (of government) those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny”

“Dissent is the highest form of patriotism.”

“Every generation needs a new revolution.”

[LHoffman]

Am I too naive in thinking that the vast majority of Americans today would not start another civil war by commemorating and remembering the one we did have?

[Gargantua]

Ok so… the largest reenactment event takes place to commemorate the 150th anniversary - and it is goverment sanctioned.  One thing leads to another and a HUGE fight breaks out between the reenacting parties, or at the very least, many people are disgruntled about southern celebrating.

The Goverment cracks down on the event.

What do you call that? :P

In my opinion the next civil war will break out when one branch of the goverment extends dubious legal authority over another.

IE, ATF shows up to a small town in Arizona, to arrest a Sherriff, who was doing what he thought was best to protect his people, and the people of said small town - stand with him.

[Emperor_Taiki]

@Gargantua:

IN MY PERSONAL OPINION: The best way to commemorate this event, would be to start another civil war, based on the same core principles as the last two. Even Thomas Jefferson would agree with me.

Naturally, a bloodless “quiet revolution” would be preferrable but lets face the facts that it’s much less likely.

I 100% agree

[LHoffman]

@Gargantua:

Ok so… the largest reenactment event takes place to commemorate the 150th anniversary - and it is goverment sanctioned.  One thing leads to another and a HUGE fight breaks out between the reenacting parties, or at the very least, many people are disgruntled about southern celebrating.

The Goverment cracks down on the event.

What do you call that? :P

An unlikely hypothetical.

First, any government organized or sanctioned event will not have re-enactors who deliberately cause disturbances or rile up the cause of secession or slavery. (Of course there will be some people who get upset about a southern “celebration” of slavery, even though it is not that. - I think this relates to your thread on “Are we too soft as a society”. People who get offended and have their feelings hurt over a perceived wrong.)

Second, since when has the Federal or a state government cracked down on a public gathering… with violence? Kent State 1970? If there is another please speak up.

Third, do you believe that men who would dress up to reenact historical event a really interested in mixing it up with each other and essentially proving that the country is not beyond 150 year old events. People who reenact tend to have a great respect for what happened and wish to honor the memories of men and women of the time. I think your assumptions are pretty far fetched and just an attempt at taking the discussion into something more salacious because reality would be too boring.

[wheatbeer]

@Gargantua:

What do you call that? :P

An episode of South Park

http://www.southparkstudios.com/full-episodes/s03e14-the-red-badge-of-gayness

(sorry  :lol:)

[Gargantua]

Second, since when has the Federal or a state government cracked down on a public gathering… with violence? Kent State 1970? If there is another please speak up.

What happend to Occupy movement in the end?  Or battle in seattle?

Third, do you believe that men who would dress up to reenact historical event a really interested in mixing it up with each other and essentially proving that the country is not beyond 150 year old events.

Actually YES I do.  Why do you think you have “Tea Party” crazies running around in your country? Causing disturbance? And standing up for the people?

Ask yourself how many CONFEDERATE re-enactors, would overtly or covertly engage in another secession of the southern states today, if the oppurtunity presented itself, and they could join?

People -Re-enact- because they want to be PART of something, and that interest usually stems from their passion for the history, and the “color of right” they feel about that history is often the major component.

I await your retort Scoffman! ;)

[LHoffman]

@Gargantua:

What happend to Occupy movement in the end?  Or battle in seattle?

This could be an example, however it was not federal or state governments who put down some kind of uprising or even handled security, it was local and city police. Additionally, the Occupy movement and Union “blockade” were at times deliberately destructive and intended to cause disturbance to a varying degree, unlike a historical re-enactment. When people were not complying with the law or destroying property the police stepped in; that is their job. Some people call that brutality. Contentious as all these events were, I do not believe one person was killed by law enforcement. The events at Kent State were probably much worse than either contemporary example.And while not at all what anyone would have wanted, it was almost inevitable that someone was going to get hurt or killed there. I don’t think that anything like it has happened since.

@Gargantua:

Third, do you believe that men who would dress up to reenact historical event a really interested in mixing it up with each other and essentially proving that the country is not beyond 150 year old events.

Actually YES I do.  Why do you think you have “Tea Party” crazies running around in your country? Causing disturbance? And standing up for the people?

Can you provide some examples of “Tea Party crazies” running around and perpetrating any violence or disruption even approaching that of Occupy Wall Street or by Unions? I seriously doubt it, because they don’t. Unfortunately the media, the government and celebrities make the Tea Party out to be racists, bigots, morons and overall more dangerous than both radical left groups and Al-Qaeda  terrorists. I don’t mean to make this at all political, but you brought it up, so I had to address it. I am not even sure what the correlation between the Tea Party and the Confederacy is anyway… Maybe the ascribed identity of “rebellion”, which is something of a misnomer anyway.

@Gargantua:

Ask yourself how many CONFEDERATE re-enactors, would overtly or covertly engage in another secession of the southern states today, if the oppurtunity presented itself, and they could join?

Okay, I will. …. Hmmm… Answer: very few.

Many may claim to support secession with a lot of bravado, but in reality they don’t and would not. It will not happen anyway. Even the wackos who actually are totally gung-ho for it are decidely a small minority. I would venture to say that the number of real secessionists among re-enactors is even less than among the general population.

Also, the people of the states do not have the direct authority or power to initiate secession. Barring a massive, massive popular revolt, the state legislatures and governors would need to make those moves. That is never going to happen. Why? Well for one, I don’t know that any governors or legislatures today are outright secessionists. It is one thing to want to strengthen your state and challenge federal authority. It is entirely another to speak seriously of breaking from the Union. Second, it would be economically impossible for 90-95% of southern states to sustain themselves outside of the United States. The only one I know that could do so is Texas… maybe Florida. Texas has something like the 12th largest GDP in the world; equivalent to India and your very own Canada. Anyway, I digress… suffice to say that secessionists are blowhards and it will never be a reality anyway. Unless of course the US economy totally collapses due to the national debt and society breaks down… which is a distinct possibility.  :-D

@Gargantua:

People -Re-enact- because they want to be PART of something, and that interest usually stems from their passion for the history, and the “color of right” they feel about that history is often the major component.

Yes, you are right. But that does not mean that people who put on a Confederate uniform and play soldiers stand for everything that the South fought for, or that they are nuts who think they should fight again. I think that the vast majority are those who have families, homes, jobs and just want to live a life without bother. Another war is far too much of a bother. Not to mention unnecessary.

What about those who put on WWII German uniforms for re-enactments? Does this automatically mean that their historical view is somehow colored to be sympathetic with Nazi Germany? I know that you don’t believe that, and I think that most people here would agree that just because you put on a Nazi uniform does not make you one. Nor does it mean that you somehow think the Germans should have won the war or that their ideas were right. Most people do it because they appreciate history and the meaning of it.

@Gargantua:

I await your retort Scoffman! ;)

Haha, I rather like this. When I am not laughing at you (or the comments you make) I am generally scoffing haughtily.  :lol:

I got confused at first glance because my middle name is Scott…

[Emperor_Taiki]

@LHoffman:

Second, it would be economically impossible for 90-95% of southern states to sustain themselves outside of the United States. The only one I know that could do so is Texas… maybe Florida. Texas has something like the 12th largest GDP in the world; equivalent to India and your very own Canada. Anyway, I digress… suffice to say that secessionists are blowhards and it will never be a reality anyway. Unless of course the US economy totally collapses due to the national debt and society breaks down… which is a distinct possibility.  :-D

Without the federal income tax, national debt, and fiat currency, wouldn’t each individual state have much stronger economies?

[Guerrilla Guy]

Taiki… I would agree…  :-)

But… we are getting off topic. This posted to all those going down this vein. This should be in regards to how we could honor the Civil War’s 150th Anniversary. I might suggest you take the topic currently being discussed and submit it into another thread, assuming it’s more about economics than politics.

GG

[LHoffman]

@Guerrilla:

Taiki… I would agree…  :-)

But… we are getting off topic. This posted to all those going down this vein. This should be in regards to how we could honor the Civil War’s 150th Anniversary. I might suggest you take the topic currently being discussed and submit it into another thread, assuming it’s more about economics than politics.

GG

Praise the Lord for moderator sanity…. Thank you GG.    And BOOYA Garg!  :-P

[Jermofoot]

Honor the dead, revisit the major battles, but leave it at that.  Avoid discussing the reason for it all and the disagreement on it.

[Mallery29]

@Jermofoot:

Honor the dead, revisit the major battles, but leave it at that.  Avoid discussing the reason for it all and the disagreement on it.

I beg to differ. While it shouldn’t be done here, the reasons FOR the war and the disagreements SHOULD be discussed.  Sorry for my History/Poly Sci coming out, but no matter how you view the war (or Civil War, or war of Northern Aggression depending on your views), the core issues should be looked at because they are all relevant still today.

1. States rights vs. Federal control
2. Suspension of Habeus corpus
3. Martial Law
4. Scorched Earth

As for any celebration/memory….honor Lincoln/Lee/Grant and the dead on both sides (and the Medal of Honor recipients).

[MrMalachiCrunch]

Strange that the ‘right’ to own slaves was not listed as a reason for the US civil war.  Personally, I think it better to remember the sacrifices made rather than the reasons for it.  If you start to ‘discuss’ reasons then you are asking for one side to admit they were wrong.  Is it really that important that the ‘less right’ side of war admit that the other side was more right in order to remember the dead?  I say leave the debates in the classroom and just remember the fallen and endeavour to fight wars only under the most pressing of reasons.

If only the south would admit they were wrong for reasons 1 thru 9

If only the north would admit they were wrong for reasons 10-19

If only one side would admit they had more and better reasons than the other side.

Seems the dead were left out of the last 3 sentences, what is important here?

[Mallery29]

How can you remember the dead in the Revolution War without thinking about how we got there?  WWI?  WWII? Vietnam?  Or any other war?  Each war has its own little tidbits of thinking.

You say the dead were left out and we ask what is important here?  Well, how about the fact that we have dead to think about in the first place.  Only thinking about dead people does nothing to solve anything.  Oh sure, I think we should memorialize them, or honor them, or do something to commemorate it, but the IMPORTANT thing here is we have dead because we could resolve issues 1-9 or 10-19 or whatever.

“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”