Manchuria in the Global game

[Krupp Steel]

Hello everyone, my thoughts for this thread don’t really pertain to the Pacific game but to the global game.

Japanese forces on Manchuria amount to no less than 4 Infantry, 1 Mechanized Infantry, 1 Artillery, 1 Anti-aircraft gun, 1 bomber, 3 fighters, and 2 Tactical bombers.

To me this showing of strength would suggest that the Russians are going to have a hefty amount of materials in Amur and it’s surrounding territories.

So does anyone know what the Russian strength was in 1940? I was just curious as to the reason for the amount of pieces in Manchuria.

Thanks Everyone 8-)

[ksmckay]

I think if Japan tried to send all those units to russia then they would get overwhelmed by China and UK in south asia.  All those units marched toward China and got there just in the nick of time for me to prevent the chinese from spreading.

The global game should be interesting.  I wonder if it will use the same setup or a new global setup.

[Krupp Steel]

@ksmckay:

I think if Japan tried to send all those units to russia then they would get overwhelmed by China and UK in south asia.  All those units marched toward China and got there just in the nick of time for me to prevent the chinese from spreading.

The global game should be interesting.  I wonder if it will use the same setup or a new global setup.

Yes they are doing the same for me this game lol. Hopefully some light can be shed on the topic from some history buff’s. And maybe even Krieg could give us some memories from playtesting. :roll: :-)

[Krieghund]

Let’s just say that it tends to be in both Japan’s and the USSR’s best interests to honor the non-aggression treaty, at least initially.

[Krupp Steel]

@Krieghund:

Let’s just say that it tends to be in both Japan’s and the USSR’s best interests to honor the non-aggression treaty, at least initially.

Awesome thanks Krieg. :-)

[Funcioneta]

@Krieghund:

Let’s just say that it tends to be in both Japan’s and the USSR’s best interests to honor the non-aggression treaty, at least initially.

Not trying to be too critic, but saying that and not saying anything is the same: in all games Larry did some vague sentence as that and in all games and we had the treaty broken, usually round 1 or 2 as much, mostly because there is no rule to prevent it. If China got special rules to get smited I don’t see any reason to not do the same to Japan. Well, I mean for the global game: Pacific games had both the pact rule for a good reason. Ideally the treaty should survive until or Berlin is fallen or until Japan is near to Caucasus, Novo or with a big rising sun flag at San Francisco …

Unless, of course, you have some ace in the sleeve and WOTC doesn’t allow you say a word  :wink:

[Omega]

Well Func, until now, everyone that played the game basically agree that China isn’t that weak. Even with that “wall” that you keep bringing around

Robert

[xzorn]

The wall keeping China out of Russia should also stop Japan. As for Manchuria, Japan should be able to hit it but Rus should get a ton of inf and an AA gun. An AA gun would go far to keep Japan out of Rus without giving Rus more offensive power.

[Imperious Leader]

To me this showing of strength would suggest that the Russians are going to have a hefty amount of materials in Amur and it’s surrounding territories.

I can say that the AAE40 would include some script that kept Japan and the Soviets neutral, unless certain conditions were met. One of these may be a saving roll for the Soviet player if he decided to move these forces to the European theater. The Soviet victory no longer requires anything but them to capture German occupied territories.

Like wise Japan most likely wont even consider the Soviets as their own Victory depends on Pacific conquests.

[WILD BILL]

In the global game, Russia might be added to the don’t attack or the USA will kick you a$$ pact. So it could be incentive to keep Japan out for a couple rounds anyway. That would put us right around the time of Barbarossa (round #3). This is 1940, and we get to rewrite history so if Germany can convince Japan to hit Russia’s back door then so be it! There might be some kind of political rule stating that Japan can’t attack Russia till after Germany dose.

From what I remember Larry said Russia isn’t really ready for war early on so I can’t see them attacking Japan when they know Germany will be coming hard soon. Larry’s fix to the Rus/Jap non aggression pact is to just put a ton of 1 IPC tt between Manchuria and Moscow. With mech inf out of the box there might be a 2-3 round political delay like I mention above.

[Tralis]

Japan really did consider attacking the Soviet Far East. They didn’t, but in a parrallel world its very likely that they could have. Thus, I don’t think it should be stopped or made extremely difficult. It should just be made difficult enough that its only one of several options for Japan. They problem isn’t so much that they can rape eastern USSR, the problem is that they nearly always do, which saps the game of variety.

[Imperious Leader]

they considered in in 1939, but soon realized that oil was not located in those parts. Occupation of tundra and dense forests did not add to japan economically. Id would like to see zero IPC for these and more for Moscow and other regions in western USSR. That would make it a total waste for Japan to help Germany.

[WILD BILL]

Well they didn’t make them zero(Russian eastern tt), but there are more of the 1 IPC tt then there was in AA50. My hope is that if Japan won’t be able to go with a typical march across Russia til it gets to Moscow, because the US and other Pacific allies will be knocking at the door in Tokyo Bay asking if Tojo can come out and play.

[kcdzim]

@WILD:

In the global game, Russia might be added to the don’t attack or the USA will kick you a$$ pact.

That’s silly.  The US wouldn’t have cared if Japan attacked Russia.  The US and Britain wouldn’t have cared if Germany had ONLY attacked Russia.  Britain may have even helped.  Russia was an ally in the loosest possible sense of the word.

What it could be is RUSSIA gets a one time boat load of cashy money (or a stack of free strategically placed units) if and ONLY if Japan captures any Russian terratory (Japan declares war).  And Russia declares war if they capture original japanese terratory (manchuria for example) and then Japan gets the bonus.

This would focus Japan to the south with less concern of the border (might be a buildup if Japan prepares to hit the Caucasus), and allows Japan and russia to attack each other in China or India without triggering the bonus.

[Canuck12]

My guess is that the Japanese attack on Russia will be prevented in the most logical and historical ways:

First: Strategically, the Soviet far east is of little value. With the new territories, it will be a long, expensive way to Moscow if you try to go the Siberia route. Which was the historical reality. Plus, remember that Japan starts with only 27 IPCs in 1940, and the US will be at 57 in the Pacific and perhaps over 100 in the global game. Most of the economic gains that Japan stands to make are in south Asia (as IL said). Plus you can throw all of those troops at Russia, and still have China, India and ANZAC breathing down your neck. Not to even mention the USA.

Seems to me if I’m playing Japan in the Global game, I’m going after the cash as well as the nations that stand a chance at actually doing damage to my economy. Sure, it would be nice to help Germany take Moscow, as in every other game, but it seems to me the longer distance and relatively tiny IPC value of the territory will keep Japan occupied elsewhere. I still think the rules should allow Japan the option to attack if they wish, just as USSR should have the option.

Furthermore, and from the historical perspective, (for K-Steel) Japan fought quite a few skirmishes with the USSR on the Manchurian border before they signed the pact. And the Japanese got their asses kicked every time. In at least 3 separate attempts the Japanese were prevented from advancing into Russia with very little effort from the Russians. General Zhukov was in personal command of the forces at the time and they had little trouble with the Japanese. This is why Japan signed the non aggression treaty, not because Russia was afraid of Japan but because Japan was afraid of Russia…

Hence, I anticipate a pretty hefty force spread out about the Far East. I think the placement of extra troops there in revised and AA50 was one of the best improvements. I could easily see 4 or 5 in the territory directly north of Manchuria and at least 2 spread out in every other space (remember there are now 3 other territories bordering that one: 9 infantry would be a pretty tough fight). Even if Russia wasn’t ready to fight a modern war in 1940, they sure had a lot of people kicking around the country.

Plus there’s the separate victory condition thing…

In any case, I think the 1940 start date as well as an IC in India and Australia will keep Japan busy in the south Pacific more than in any other game to date.

[Flashman]

You have to remember that, after all else is said, the only serious consideration is to win the overall game; and for the Axis that probably still means crushing Russia ASAP.  Even if attacking Siberia causes 6 soviet infantry to magically pop out of Stalin’s arse, this will likely remain the optimum strategy.
The value of Siberian territories is irrelevant; likewise victory cities can wait until overwhelming material superiority is established.

[Razor]

@Tralis:

Japan really did consider attacking the Soviet Far East. They didn’t, but in a parrallel world its very likely that they could have. Thus, I don’t think it should be stopped or made extremely difficult. It should just be made difficult enough that its only one of several options for Japan. They problem isn’t so much that they can rape eastern USSR, the problem is that they nearly always do, which saps the game of variety.

http://www.siberianlight.net/khalkhin-gol-battle-nomonhan/

[Emperor_Taiki]

Krupp Steel, I think its a good guess to say that the Soveits are going to have a large force on the manchurian border.
The Soveits scored a vicotry against Japan in their 1938-1939 war at battle of Nomonhan, but still saw Japan as a threat and it wasnt until april 13 1941 that the two sides signed a five year non-agresion pact.