@general-LD
“When attacking or defending, hits scored by air units cannot be assigned to submarines
unless there is a destroyer friendly to the air units in the battle.” (Rulebook, page 30)
HTH :slightly_smiling_face:
Don't get how Germany can handle UK and Russia with the bombing…
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In this one, double the IPC value is the total damage limit. If a factory is maxed out in damage and isn’t repaired, it can’t be damaged at all for a turn.
As Britain or USA you wouldnt call preventing Germany building a single unit for that a victory?
Here is a plausable and common scenario.
-Enough bombers go in to do 12 IPC damage to Italy.
-Italy only has 9IPC to repair with. (2 mainland ones)
-No units for Italy that turn and still 3 IPC left to repair
-Next turn allies need to risk even less bombers to keep Italy out of the game!Also, your math is correct, but you leave out the other opportunities that bomber may have. Many times bomber support on a battle is more effective than a SBR, especially because usually in the battle the Bomber has a 0% chance of being lost. Those are some of the reasons I don’t see that much SBR in this game.
Everything has an opportunity cost not jsut strategic bombing. Very hard to calculate.
But in order to use the bomber as you suggest then some other unit is costing you.ie. while the bomber isnt being lost whatever you sent in with it si!
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@Bel:
Here is a plausable and common scenario.
-Enough bombers go in to do 12 IPC damage to Italy.
-Italy only has 9IPC to repair with. (2 mainland ones)
-No units for Italy that turn and still 3 IPC left to repair
-Next turn allies need to risk even less bombers to keep Italy out of the game!I was going to write this long explanatory response, but I would sound argumentative. I’ll just say it this way, I would enjoy being your opponent if you use logic like this.
How many bombers is “enough bombers to do 12 IPC damage to Italy”? Two? Three? Five?
Who would spend 9 with Italy to repair if there was 12 damage? A player would spend nothing and save another 9 so they have 18 the next turn. -
@Bel:
Everything has an opportunity cost not jsut strategic bombing. Very hard to calculate.
But in order to use the bomber as you suggest then some other unit is costing you.ie. while the bomber isnt being lost whatever you sent in with it si!
And if I don’t take the bomber in to support, I lose more!
Bel, I would love to play you by forum. No one has ever mounted a strategic bombing campaign against me, and since you think it’s such a great strategy maybe I would get my first opportunity.I just laugh that you say people are failing at basic math, but you don’t understand the basic rules. As in your example, in previous games damage was limited to IPC value of territory. Um, PER BOMBER!! Really the only point I was trying to make was that in earlier games you could bomb an enemy’s money to smithereens - even if he had 50 IPC’s. THAT’s “taking someone out of the game” as you say. By comparison, now the most damage you could do to Germany is 20 and anything above that is wasted. Germany can pay 15 and build 5 units, for example. Point is, Germany has choices, whereas before Germany didn’t have choices, they had 0 IPC’s. Now they have 50 IPC’s (in this example) and plenty of options.
We all know SBR per bomber is worth 3.5 less the average loss of 2 per bomber = 1.5. But this does not take into account the lost damage when you inflict greater than maximum damage. For example, you bomb Germany with 4 bombers, and roll 24 damage. You only inflict 20, so 4 had no effect. So your average calculation is not always as simple as 1+6 divided by 2, if you’re taking in enough bombers to potentially do more than max damage.
I’d like to see you build that many bombers up without me taking all your territory. I’d have to see an effective strat bombing campaign to believe it is really that effective, because a 1.5 (at best) average margin per bomber is not that attractive, frankly.
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As in your example, in previous games damage was limited to IPC value of territory. Um, PER BOMBER!! Really the only point I was trying to make was that in earlier games you could bomb an enemy’s money to smithereens - even if he had 50 IPC’s. THAT’s “taking someone out of the game” as you say. By comparison, now the most damage you could do to Germany is 20 and anything above that is wasted.
To be fair, most players utilized the Larry Harris Tournament Rules for Revised that altered the out of the box SBR rules you mention. LHTR DID limit bombing to max of the IPC value of the territory per country. So IF USA was conducting the allied bombing campaign on her own, she could only take $10 from Germany. UK would be forced to do her share to get to the $20 limit that now exists in AA50.
In AA50, USA alone can do the bombing while UK builds her navy. To me, that is a huge difference. Also, bombers are $3 cheaper, AAA guns cost $1 and are less effective (only defend the territory they are in, no longer shooting at planes en route to target).
All of these factors indicate to me that SBR’s are a bigger factor in AA50 than in Revised.
In classic, well with weapons, that game turned into a bomber fest. Best leave THAT version of the game out of the SBR discussions.
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Hmmmm - OK axis, thanks for the clarification. I never did read up on the LHTR for Revised, so yes, I’m comparing to unlimited damage with OOB rules as you said.
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I was going to write this long explanatory response, but I would sound argumentative. I’ll just say it this way, I would enjoy being your opponent if you use logic like this.
How many bombers is “enough bombers to do 12 IPC damage to Italy”? Two? Three? Five?
Who would spend 9 with Italy to repair if there was 12 damage? A player would spend nothing and save another 9 so they have 18 the next turn.-doing 12 IPC takes on average 3.4 bombers.
Look mate I’m not sure why your so worked up but your plainly putting little thought into your replies. If Italy waits to turn 2 after the SBR to bomb again they have 18IPC - 12IPC to fix allowing them to build 2 infantry. Allies come in the next turn and it begins all over again.
Regardless italy has gone from building 3 inf per turn to 2 every 2 turns and even better for the allies they have to use their bombers in SBR only every second turn as well so while the axis have gained some respite to build again they are killing less heavy bombers and freed up the heavy bombers to do some combats.
The maths don’t support your logic.
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@Bel:
-doing 12 IPC takes on average 3.4 bombers.
Look mate I’m not sure why your so worked up but your plainly putting little thought into your replies. If Italy waits to turn 2 after the SBR to bomb again they have 18IPC - 12IPC to fix allowing them to build 2 infantry. Allies come in the next turn and it begins all over again.
The maths don’t support your logic.
If Italy has 18 IPC’s with max 12 damage, they’re not going to fix 12 damage and build 2 infantry. Italy only needs to fix 7 to build something. So they could build a fighter and have 1 left over. Man, who have you been playing, anyway?
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Ummm… if Italy has been bombed, they can’t build ANYTHING, at all, during that turn, no matter what they build. Just thought I’d point that out.
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Ummm… if Italy has been bombed, they can’t build ANYTHING, at all, during that turn, no matter what they build. Just thought I’d point that out.
Not sure what you are referring too. If Italy had $10 or more dollars, they would be able to build 1 or more units. The repair costs need to get to 5 damage (7 repairs) + 1 inf ($3) = 10 IPCs
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I agree with the OP. SBR with the new rules and GER having only one factory kills this game. Played it a handful of times before me and my friends gave it up in favor of 42.
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I agree with the OP. SBR with the new rules and GER having only one factory kills this game. Played it a handful of times before me and my friends gave it up in favor of 42.
Handful of times is not enough. Ever tried building an IC in France? Ever rolled for tech? Ever played with escorts/interceptors?
If you think SBR is too devastating, just play with escorts/interceptors. You won’t see much SBR after that unless you lose all of your fighters. -
Do any of you guys who think SBR is over-powered play by forum?
I would love to play one of you. I have never ever had a problem with SBR against me as the Axis. I would really have fun trying to counter/survive a lot of SBR. I’m even willing to play without the interceptor optional rule. PM me, post here, anything. I have thrown down the gauntlet.
I’m guessing that with only 5 posts, Deathtwinkie isn’t even around. That leaves you, colonel :D Oh wait, you only have 17 posts.
My guess is there isn’t anyone who plays AA50 much who SBR’s like crazy because I’ve never seen it.
The max damage per territory really holds it back. If you send in 4 conventional bombers to SBR Germany and they all get missed by AA, the could do from 4-24 damage, except the damage is capped at 20. So if you send in 4 (or any more than that) your average damage per bomber is already less than 3.5. Anyway, I think I listed all the considerations that are not being considered, earlier on this thread.
I wanna play against an SBR campaaaiiign!!! -
I have more than one post. :? Anyway it’s not so much the SBR but the fact Germany has only one factory and Italy is so weak. One of my friends did the France factory and it was an utter disaster. Can GER really afford 15 IPCs on a territory so far away from their main objective? Especially if you buy an AC, which seems to be even more essential in this version? That’s almost all of their starting income right there. Especially if you roll for tech which is a standard first round move for Germany. Meanwhile what does Russia build? Land stuff that goes all out for Germany since it’s a loooong time before they have to worry about Japan.
Can’t remember if we played with the fighter intercept rule because we haven’t played since the summer but we use it with 42 so it would probably help a little but the addition of Italy is too much dead weight for GER. A country that can only build 6 things, has to press Russia, defend France, hold the MED and seperates GER from Africa income makes the game too unbalanced.
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Col, it doesn’t sound like you’ve played AA50 much, except some with your buddies.
That’s fine, it’s just that I think you may be posting out of ignorance.
Probably between 60-90% of regular AA50 players would tell you that if anything, the game favors the Axis. Many others would say that it is balanced. Many call for extra Allied infantry in Yunnan, or Egypt, for example.Germany starts with a 10 factory, but normally picks up and holds Karelia, which is another 2. France is farther from Russia, yes, which you call the “main objective”. I would submit to you that Germany does not need to take over Russia to win this game. This is a different game than previous versions. Especially if you are talking the 1941 scenario, Germany can just manage Russia and wait for the cavalry (Japan).
In the '41 scenario, I have lost Germany and Italy and still won with Japan vs. the world, and it wasn’t even close.
Italy is not the “weak sister” that you think. I normally haul in 20-25 IPC’s as Italy at the end of the first round, and many times after a few rounds she is out-earning the UK. You point out that Italy takes away IPC’s in Africa from Germany. But there are positives to the new power as well. She can create powerful opportunities in the Eastern Front that were not possible before - “can-openers” if you will.
It’s a pity you won’t play me by forum. I could “take you to school” 8-) :wink: -
Meanwhile what does Russia build? Land stuff that goes all out for Germany since it’s a loooong time before they have to worry about Japan.
A country that can only build 6 things, has to press Russia, defend France, hold the MED and seperates GER from Africa income makes the game too unbalanced.
Agree with you that Russia builds land stuff and goes all out for Germany for a few rounds. Japan gets to Russia on average by round 4, or so, which may be quicker than you think.
Italy often times can’t even max capacity (6) so that’s not the major limiting factor. Italy can’t press Russia, defend France, and hold the Med (and take over Africa). Usually you have to prioritize - you can’t do it all. Just like the UK cannot put maximum pressure on Germany, take back Africa, build an IC in India, and pressure Japan. You have to take your picks. Italy is no different than anyone else that way. -
How does playing by forum work? I don’t like the sound of it. I need a board and dice. I would like to play you, because you’re boastful and I doubt you’re as good as you claim, because I read one of you posts where you said you like playing countries where you don’t have to think too much, like China.
AA50 strikes me as a game where you don’t have to think to much, because every countries objectives are spelled out for you. I think people are in denial because of the money they blew on this attractive albiet broken game.
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pbf is pretty easy. i was skeptical at first too, give me the board and dice. then i played a pbf, (my face to face partner was away for two weeks, needed a fix), it was fun. if you download abattlemap, its like having a board. the one thing i dont like is not having the dice in my hand, mojo you know. i suggest you try it. well worth the time, and i have learned a lot by playing various other players. easy to get going, although abattlemap is a little tricky to get the hang of. just download it and mess around with moving pieces, flagging countries and NOs, deleting pieces, etc. the map keeps track of ipc, tech, turns, all of it. and if there is ever a discrepency, you can go back to previous posts to chack on things. if you would like, we can start a game and just go through a round or two just to get the hang of it. i can help walk you through the map stuff. map is the most important item in pbf.
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Italy is a real pain in 1941 scenario making can openers for Germany. Also, it’s annoying when they start collecting about the same as UK, at least in 1942 scenario :-P
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pbf is pretty easy. i was skeptical at first too, give me the board and dice. then i played a pbf, (my face to face partner was away for two weeks, needed a fix), it was fun. if you download abattlemap, its like having a board. the one thing i dont like is not having the dice in my hand, mojo you know. i suggest you try it. well worth the time, and i have learned a lot by playing various other players. easy to get going, although abattlemap is a little tricky to get the hang of. just download it and mess around with moving pieces, flagging countries and NOs, deleting pieces, etc. the map keeps track of ipc, tech, turns, all of it. and if there is ever a discrepency, you can go back to previous posts to chack on things. if you would like, we can start a game and just go through a round or two just to get the hang of it. i can help walk you through the map stuff. map is the most important item in pbf.
Thanks for the offer. Sure, I’d give it a whirl, once I find the time.
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How does playing by forum work? I don’t like the sound of it. I need a board and dice. I would like to play you, because you’re boastful and I doubt you’re as good as you claim, because I read one of you posts where you said you like playing countries where you don’t have to think too much, like China.
At least I can back up the boasting. Just ask katfish and Funcioneta, who just posted here. We have a good time playing, but they haven’t beaten me yet.
Take up katfish on the offer. PBF is really fun - you’ll probably like it. Many people think it would be horrible, but they’ve never tried it. I was the same way.
You totally misinterpreted me on the reason I like playing China. Yeah, I don’t like to think too much, because I’ve been thinking so much on all the other powers. You don’t think you have to think to play AA50? Another sign you haven’t played it much, or haven’t played good competition. If you don’t think too much, you will lose.
Since I annoy you, we would probably have a lot of fun playing. Sometimes it’s fun to have an “enemy” you don’t like!! :lol:
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