Subs… what's the point?

The game miss convoy zones. Why should you buy subs if there are no convoy zones ?

if you don’t buy them, you can’t use them.
if you buy five of them at once, they are fun to use until a destroyer and a flight of heavy bombers show up.   sigh.

buy 2 carriers, fully loaded with fighters, maybe 3, and at least as many subs as fighters.  now use the subs and fighters to attack, maybe throw in a few bombers, and then just replace the subs as they get killed off.  see how that works for ya.

@tarkonis:

Can anyone advocate the use of subs for any power in the game?

Japan and USA should buy at least a couple of them every game (they should have a showdown at Pacific Ocean)

Sometimes, UK can use one or two to finish the italian fleet. Other times, the italians can buy one ore two if they feel they can face the allied fleets

And they are vital for germans in opening move, I could even try a naval tech roll round 1 someday and use that supersubs in a wacky G1  :wink:

@tarkonis:

Subs vital for G1? o_O?

They way I see it all submarine power is negated by the presence of 1 destroyer in any allied naval seagroup.  Your G1 submarine buy just bought russia some time :P

I mean the starting subs, pal  :-D They can be used in many valuable places: z2, z12 and z9. They are only two of them, but hitting at 3’s can be a big difference, specially in z9  :wink: Even the one in z6 can cause some troubles G2 if UK gets uncared

@tarkonis:

Why?  Every time I play Axis I have won by simply deterring the US with a large ish fleet and going for russia.  I think if you are Japanese and the US is building a fleet for a showdown it means that they are not focusing on Europe.  I should allways defend in this case and force a pacific naval stalemate while going for russia on land.

You need defend Pacific Ocean as USA or you’ll risk be defending in America instead, from token Alaska landings or even a big full invassion on Alaska. You cannot focus in Europe with USA unless Japan want let you do it

On Pacific Ocean, sometimes you need block fleets, and you must do it with destroyers. So, to kill that sacrifice dds, it’s good having some cheap subs as fodder

some US pacific subs DO force Japan to buy a DD or two.

Later if the US can amass a number of subs (8?) that helps keep Japan away from the Pacific coast if they haven’t approached yet.

I do agree though, in the atlantic, subs are pretty worthless.

Nomination for most worthless piece:  Russian sub!

@tarkonis:

I’d build a destroyer as soon as I saw subs near the med.  Italian Subs…  :lol:

I’m not saying that you should buy italian subs all games. I say that sometimes (5% ? ) can be useful buy some subs to menace z12, specially if allied fleet went north. And, since Italy goes after UK and before USA, sometimes a rogue italian sub (and the starting fig) can chase a uncared USA fleet of poorly defended trannies at z12. Other times, the simple menace of this is enough to slow down allied fleets movement

The idea is that, even if subs are not the ultimate weapon, they are cheap, and there are some places here and there where you could miss them if don’t have none

@tarkonis:

but hitting at 3’s

Sub’s attack on a 2.

They hit at 3’s with supersubs tech (as I said)  :-)

I’ll make a case for subs.

They can cause mismatch problems and are a nightmare for OOLs.
You can actually force an opponent to lose higher priced naval units just to keep a DD around for the 2nd or 3 rd of combat b/c as an attacker you can see your opponents OOL first and if they lose all their DDs thinking you’ll sack your subs, maybe you lose your DDs and a ftr just so you can have 2-3 subs now take a free shot at the ACs/CAs/Damaged BBs.

Also you may need up to 1 dd for every sub b/c what the subs can do is fan out and occupy multiple sea zones.  Now the other side is forced to trade an 8 ipc unit for a 6.  If ignored the subs can make a strike on the main naval force with air support, again potentially causing OOL issues if the defending navy only has 1 DD.

I’ve seen Germany/Italy/Japan/US all use subs effectively.  UK to a lesser extent if they just want 1-2 cheap fodder units to kill the Ita navy with air support usually in rd 3 (rd 1 place 1-3 subs in sz 8, rd 2 move to sz 13, rd 3 Air + subs sink Ita fleet and conserve the ftrs/boms).

japan and america in pacific, maybe italy in med, maybe UK in atlantic.  mostly subs get best used in the pacific.  as far as being attacked, keeping a BB or 2 and some destroyers or cruisers with the fleet of carriers should keep any attackers at bay.  but my idea is to have more subs than planes.  if any fleet comes within range of the subs, use the subs and the planes for attack.  when the defender returns fire, kill of your subs, and retreat those expensive planes.  just buy more subs to replace the ones you loose.  i usually keep the subs seperate from the fleet, but within range of the planes.  if any one attacks your fleet and has a destroyer present, loose the subs first, let your big defenders blow them away.  good luck

Look what the sub is.  It has a giher attack and lower cost than a destroyer, Carrier, and a cruiser.  Airplanes and subs not being able to hit each other can be a good thing (especially for Germany).  A few subs for Germany can be an amazing thing as they are cheap (you can buy a sub once in awhile instead of a plane to save a few bucks) and hard to target, giving them free movement.  They can get to transports quicker because they target ships only, and they can “cheapen” the value of a carrier dramaticaly.  They act as a cheap piece of fodder and in the pacific especially are a great  way to establish a zone of control.  Subs are a very specialized unit that, if purchased correctly, are a good buy.

Judicious use of subs will mark the difference between a good player and a better player.  They are a specialised unit, requiring careful planning, but they offer the best value for money of any unit that can fight in sea zones.

Don’t be fooled that subs are poor defenders - they roll dice and they are the cheapest casualities in the water.  They defend better than DD’s against naval attacks (obviously not against pure air attacks - you must have enough capital ships to ward that off) in practically any situation except having only subs.  Mixed with DDs, CVs or BBs, subs are fearsome on defence.

I’m talking cost/value terms of obviously, not one SS for one DD - the latter is obviously stronger, but significantly more costly.  You can only get 3 DDs for the price of 4SSs. 3DDs will beat 4SSs on a slight majority of combats, but add equal numbers of any other units to both sides and look what happens - the subs are always stronger on defence than DDs.

Subs are a powerful tool in your arsenal.  As Dondolee points out they are highly specialised.  They have strengths and weaknesses, but boy can you make a difference with them if used adroitly.

Some valuable uses:

• They are the absolute best unit in dollar terms in sea zones (not just in big battles, but if the opponent is silly enough to trade their DDs for your SSs in the lead up - e.g. the ‘fanning out’ situation that Darth mentions)
• As Darth points out they can cause your opponent order of loss issues
• They complicate strategic purchasing decisions for the enemy.
• They can exploit the weaknesses of CV’s that do not have other naval defence - a good player won’t allow you to take their CV this way, but it will close movement options to them.  And they may have had to plan some moves in advance to ensure it is adequately defended - especially for japanese CVs)
• The US can protect Hawaii, the west coast and their pacific island NO quite cost effectively with just subs
• Italy can force the allies to invest heavily if they want to take out the italian fleet (you cant stop them, but you’ll test your opponents skill by making them plan their purchases well in the turns leading up, and it means they are doing horrible things with the efficiency of their fleet locations)
• If germany invests in a baltic fleet, the UK can force them to commit to a build up (russia is laughing unless Germany is maintaining an income of 50 or so) or lose that investment (russia and UK are laughing)
• In the right circumstances (e.g. UK fleet wanders south) Germany can invest in baltic subs, which in combination with the luftwaffe can make the UK unable to return in some cases.

I haven’t even touched on the ways you can use the submerge and first strike abilities.

Subs are not an all round unit.  As Dondolee implies - if you’re not sure exactly what your buying it for - don’t.  They have many great uses and add another layer to the game allowing stronger players to leverage their skill (and thus fewer games decided by dice).

And subs are fun  :-D

One other nice thing about subs is you can use the DD block in the sea as easily as you can an inf block, you must watch out for this vs Japan as many times i have simply DD blocked or been blocked in the pacific.

One interesting thing about that situation, if only i could figure out how to use it, is this.  SZ 51 can only be accessed from the sea of japan by 1 SZ.  Is there a way for the US to buy subs only and use a DD block to prevent the cheap air strike from Japan?  With a UK bomber or two in range you also force Japan to block with more than 1 DD if you have the offensive advantage.

But subs are best for Japan I believe, as the US must come to you at some point in the pacific, and you will get to strike the US before they strike you if desired and a small group of subs can make that difficult.  It also adds a lot of punch to your defensive starting fleet.  Just try to get a G bomber over there to can opener for ya!

OOL = Order of Loss.

Typically people lose the cheap units first and on land this is easy, Inf, then Rt, then Arm, then Ftrs but in naval battles your order of loss will depend much more on what is used to attack and how many rds of combat you anticipate the battle to go.  For example if a group of 6 Subs attack 2 Destroyers, a Cruiser, and a loaded Carrier, and the subs get 2 hits the defender may have to choose to lose a destroy and the cruiser b/c if the attacker survived the counter and the defender lost the 2 destroyers instead then the surviving subs would get a free shot at the cruiser and AC and perhaps sink the whole fleet.  So the attacker can go into the battle with the idea of strafing or just seeing how the battle goes and if the get 2-3 hits the defender has some real tough choices (which have to be made before the defender even rolls their dice).