L22 BM elche (Axis) vs FlyingBadger (Allies+23) #2

[FlyingBadger]

@elche My understanding of the BM rules are that, if Vichy is triggered, the French ships won’t become neutral as they are not in SZ93. Is that your understanding as well? Obviously if Vichy isn’t triggered then it doesn’t matter and the Free French navy will fight on for Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité. Vive La France! :flag-fr:

[FlyingBadger]

38059_1fra.tsvg

[elche]

It is my first game with Axis in BM mode, so no problem to believe you. But what have the Axis to do that the french ships dont fight for liberty and leave the map ? If I dont attack Southern french but the ships are away. Can the french ships attack the italian navy in R1?
Scramble in sz 110 ? 38059_1(ger).tsvg

[FlyingBadger]

@elche No scramble.

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Regarding Vichy. The notes on the rules cover most situations and this topic contains some answers to some of the ambiguous situations. This is my understanding of the Vichy rules in BM and PtV:

• To trigger Vichy (can happen any turn), this must be the situation at the start of France’s turn.
  – The Axis have to have Normandy and Paris, but doesn’t have (and has never had) Southern France.
  – There must be no non-French Allied troops in Southern France.
• This results in all originally French territories turning Pro-Axis neutrals except.
  – French Equatorial Africa
  – New Hebrides
  – Any French territories containing non-French allied land units
• It also results in the French fleet in sz 93 changing from French to Pro-Axis neutral.
  – It will fight defensively if attacked by the Allies
  – It may not be captured by the Axis.
  – It is immediately destroyed if any power, other than the Free French, occupies Southern France
• If the Axis takes Southern France then all the Vichy Pro-Axis neatral units are removed, but any formerly Vichy Pro-Axis neautral units that were previously commandeered by the Axis remain as they are.

Triggering Vichy is initailly useful to the Axis as it takes some Allied units off the board and creates pro-Axis neutrals to capture, but it does create territories for the US or UK to capture and get income from (if they stay French then they can’t capture that income) so can benefit the Allies in the long term.

[FlyingBadger]

@elche said in L22 BM elche (Axis) vs FlyingBadger (Allies+23) #2:

It is my first game with Axis in BM mode, so no problem to believe you.

I’m okay on the Vichy rules, but would not consider my interpretation as authoritative, some of the wording of the rules is ambiguous.

But what have the Axis to do that the french ships dont fight for liberty and leave the map? If I dont attack Southern french but the ships are away.

This is a new one for me. I’ve looked around and searched the forums and can’t see a definative answer. My interpretation is that the rules refer to SZ93, so any French ships in any other sea zone are unaffected.

Can the french ships attack the italian navy in R1?

If the Germans and/or Italians take Paris and Normandy on round 1 then the French ships in SZ93 turn pro-Axis neutral at the start of the French turn in round 1. So, if Italy attacks them on it’s turn, they will fight back. However, they turn pro-Axis neutral at the start of the French turn, so France cannot attack with them.

[FlyingBadger]

@elche What I did as Axis in our first game was a clear cut Vichy triggering. What you’ve done in this game is a clear cut non-Vichy game. So I think we are good.

[elche]

I think after your moves with usa and uk is essential for me to conquer Southern France. But I dont know that france can attack italia and Netherlands. But hope to conquer .back. And there was only 1 inf I can get with italia in the non combat move. Tunesien ? Is this right ?

[elche]

Thanks for your help. Its okay because the battle of france wasnt good for me so I did not have 3 inf to conquer N/B.
Next game I know the rules and will try to conquer both France and N/B, because of the french fleet.

[elche]

I think my question was not good. I wrote and the ships are away. but wanted to say, away in other sz. In our game sz91. So the ships still yours although I would not conquer SF in R2 ?

[FlyingBadger]

@elche said in L22 BM elche (Axis) vs FlyingBadger (Allies+23) #2:

I think after your moves with usa and uk is essential for me to conquer Southern France.

Yes, I think in this situation the best move is to just straight up take all of France. It keeps the French territories as French, so I don’t get the IPCs from them. I’ve also covered some of the French territories with Allied units so they wouldn’t get turned pro-Axis neutral anyway.

But I dont know that france can attack italia and Netherlands. But hope to conquer back. And there was only 1 inf I can get with italia in the non combat move. Tunesien ? Is this right?

If Germany takes Normandy and Paris on round 1, then Vichy won’t have triggered by the Italian turn, so the French territories won’t be pro-Axis yet, that happens at the start of the French turn. On the Italian turn on round 2 they could start collecting formerly French pro-Axis territories during non-combat. So the Italians can fight the French if they want to, but those units and territories will be pro-Axis neutral before the French get to attack/move.

[FlyingBadger]

@elche said in L22 BM elche (Axis) vs FlyingBadger (Allies+23) #2:

I think my question was not good. I wrote and the ships are away. but wanted to say, away in other sz. In our game sz91. So the ships still yours although I would not conquer SF in R2 ?

Yes, that’s my interpretation, but I can’t find a definitive answer on the forums. Fortunately it’s not a factor in this game :relieved:. I think I will pose the question on the BM topic as it might be useful to know for future reference.

[FlyingBadger]

@elche

We are not the only ones who have been confused by this…
https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/topic/27451/g40-balance-mod-rules-and-download/35

Apparently, the Axis do get the benefit of the naval base at Southern France when it is pro-Axis.
https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/topic/27451/g40-balance-mod-rules-and-download/322

[FlyingBadger]

@elche

Okay, found an answer from one of the authors of BM:
https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/topic/27121/g40-balance-mod-feedback-thread/59?_=1645786437425

any french ships in sz 93 turn vichy whenever the vichy event occurs. if the ships move out before that time, they stay free french.

Ever day is a learning day.

[elche]

Thank you very much. I only read once the notes in the game but its so much difference to the old rules, I dont remember all and I have to look the notes… Russia 38059_2ger.tsvg

[elche]

Now we are experts with rules. in BM

[FlyingBadger]

38059_2rus.tsvg

[elche]

USA 38059_2jap.tsvg

[elche]

Sorry forget to place. 38059_2-jap.tsvg

[FlyingBadger]

38059_2uk.tsvg

[elche]

Anzac 38059_2ita.tsvg