so?
If you are going the amphibious route with England (as in, 7 cruisers, 1 battleship, 4 transports) then the Russian submarine, coupled with fighters/bombers you purchase for Russia, can prevent Germany from stopping your bombardments by deploying a destroyer in SZ 5.
The purpose of the Russian sub is to sink Italy’s attacking 1DD on round 5 (and laugh at the ftr) and sink Japan’s 1AC and 4trn on round 6 (and laugh at 2ftrs)! :-o
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=14545.225
reply #225 , #226
In 1941, the Sub is 100% useless. It can not back up UK’s Fleet, because by the time it comes to Russia’s Turn, Germany has already went and destroyed UK’s fleet (g1). When it gets to UK’s turn, they will sink the remaining German subs/fleet and build their own fleet including a Carrier. With a carrier and other ships in their fleet, the Germans will never be able to challenge the UK fleet, AND if they do, it will be with Planes, and so the Russian sub can not be taken as a casualty and so it is 100% useless.
In 1942, the Sub is Actually useful. Because Russia goes first, Russia can move their sub to Seazone 2. This causes Germany, if they want to attack sz2, to use 2 sub, 1 ftr, and 1 bomber. The Russian sub can be taken as a casualty, letting the UK BB take one more hit before being destroyed. Because of the Russian sub, the Germans should end up with just their ftr and bomber left, instead of also a sub too. Big difference? No, it is not. Especially because german subs defend on 1 and will be destroyed the next turn whether there are 2 or zero anyway.
In short, I think that after Larry Harris changed the rules so that Planes can not hit subs (a good rule change imo), he should have replaced the Russian sub with a Destroyer. (remember that the OLD submarines attack and defend at 2 / 2, and the new destroyers are also 2 /2. I feel that the reason the russian’s had a sub in the previous AA incarnations, was because destroyers back then were 3 / 3, and so it was a little too powerful to give them a dd)
Russian submarine utility is not at the start of the game, it’s in the middle. Russia gets to go right after Germany and before England, this means their submarine can “pave the road” for the British navy!
Situation:
England has 7 Cruisers, 1 Battleship, 4 Transports (and odds and ends.) They are repeatedly bombarding the crud out of Germany and taking minimal losses to themselves. (Yes, it’s more than Germany probably, but imagine America following up with another wave. The two will eventually break Germany’s back.)
Germany, in most games, would purchase a destroyer and plop it down in SZ 5, thus, negating 8 Shore Bombardments from England! That’s potentially 4 unkilled infantry (figuring you get one hit for every two ships bombarding the shore on any given Sunday). They’d be able to trade an 8 IPC destroyer, for 12 IPC in infantry (units they most likely need to defend the homeland, right?)
However, now you have Russia with a submarine and a couple fighters/bombers. Germany puts their destroyer in SZ 5, Russia attacks with 2 fighters/bombers and the submarine. Destroyer is almost assuredly dead and now, England may bombard at their pleasure!
@Cmdr:
Russian submarine utility is not at the start of the game, it’s in the middle. Russia gets to go right after Germany and before England, this means their submarine can “pave the road” for the British navy!
clever girl!
@Cmdr:
England has 7 Cruisers, 1 Battleship, 4 Transports (and odds and ends.) They are repeatedly bombarding the crud out of Germany and taking minimal losses to themselves (…) England may bombard at their pleasure!
England has to land as many ground troops as ships bombardments she wants to shoot, hasn’t she?
Yes. But 8 Infantry is only 24 IPC, but the realistic result of 8 infantry, 7 cruisers, 1 battleship in one round is 7 hits.
So you are trading 24 IPC with England for 21 IPC in Germany. If America does the same things, that’s -42 IPC in Germany (on top of any SBR dmg you do.)
Now, your results may vary. After all, I only saw the combined punch of 33 and that translates to 6.5 hits on average (could be higher, could be lower.) You can also use different units if you want too.
The end result, though, is that the Russian submarine is paramount in allowing this to happen. You don’t want to trade 10 IPC fighters or 12 IPC bombers to sink an 8 IPC destroyer, but you wouldn’t mind losing the submarine (which has no other realistic purpose) to open the door for the British and Americans!
@Cmdr:
Russian submarine utility is not at the start of the game, it’s in the middle. Russia gets to go right after Germany and before England, this means their submarine can “pave the road” for the British navy!
Situation:
England has 7 Cruisers, 1 Battleship, 4 Transports (and odds and ends.) They are repeatedly bombarding the crud out of Germany and taking minimal losses to themselves. (Yes, it’s more than Germany probably, but imagine America following up with another wave. The two will eventually break Germany’s back.)
Germany, in most games, would purchase a destroyer and plop it down in SZ 5, thus, negating 8 Shore Bombardments from England! That’s potentially 4 unkilled infantry (figuring you get one hit for every two ships bombarding the shore on any given Sunday). They’d be able to trade an 8 IPC destroyer, for 12 IPC in infantry (units they most likely need to defend the homeland, right?)
However, now you have Russia with a submarine and a couple fighters/bombers. Germany puts their destroyer in SZ 5, Russia attacks with 2 fighters/bombers and the submarine. Destroyer is almost assuredly dead and now, England may bombard at their pleasure!
If England has 7 cruisers and 1 BB, well…. lets just say that the cost of building that outweighs any benefits from shore bombardment. While England is busy building that, Germany should have crushed russia and built a huge reserve in france and germany
You almost need a fleet that size in order to use England. Without it, well, you’re going to be sunk by the German Air Force anyway.
So really, you have a choice, you can buy a bunch of fighters and carriers to protect your transports (good, but not optimal in my opinion) or you can buy cruisers to augment your battleship and protect your transports and thus, have the shore bombardments you need anyway.
Remember, 8 Infantry +7 fighters +1 Bomber has the same punch as 8 infantry, 7 cruisers and 1 battleship. The real difference is that if the defender has 50 tanks and 100 infantry defending, you will almost certainly lose the fighters and bomber, whereas, the cruisers and battleships are immune and cannot be lost even if he has 100% accuracy on his defense roll!
7 cruisers and 1 BB = 104 IPCs, or 3 AC and 6 figs for 102. That gives me alot more defensive capability, and, if the fight lasts longer than 1 round, more punch. It also brings a much larger threat against berlin herself, and the cost could be split between the allies. I feel cruisers are the most worthless pieces of junk in the game, and are not cost effective in the least. That cruiser would need to bombard 8 times on average to kill her IPC value in troops, and defends worse than a bomber of the same cost can attack. Maybe if they only cost 10 ipc i could see the value in them, but at the moment I feel they are worthless. I love it as germany when I see the allies build cruisers, just means the italians in france are useful for something (to take as casualties). Your mileage may vary though.
I generally send it to the pacific to mess with japan as soon as the atlanticnavies are secure and no longer need it
I think your math is off.
7 Cruisers = 84 IPC
3 AC + 4 Fighters = 82 IPC
Yes, you can do more with the fighters, but Europe can defend itself and deny you any attacks as well (for fear of losing your fighters!)
As I pointed out before, you can attack regardless of if you can take the land or not with the bombardment tactic to sap the strength of Europe and you can do it for nearly an even trade (meaning England does not get stronger, but neither does Germany. Meanwhile, America and Russia are beating on Germany as well weakening it.)
The point is, the strategy of attrition only works if you can stop Germany from plopping down a destroyer. (Anything more expensive and thus harder for Russia to kill offsets the benefit of putting anything into SZ 5 to begin with. You want to minimize your losses, not exaggerate them.) So a Russia with a submarine and at least one aircraft (preferably 2) is a good deterrent to keep Germany from even bothering.
It was used against me in the Baltic, and unfortunately hit and sunk a ship.
It can also be used to stop a National Objective in the Western Med if necessary. Chances are good the Italian Fleet (if it is still around) will not enter the Western Med fearing the British and/or American Fleet.
In short, the sub is used to fill in any gaps.
Although I recognize those players who believe it is totally useless and they can start without it at the beginning of the game if they prefer.
@Cmdr:
I think your math is off.
7 Cruisers = 84 IPC
3 AC + 4 Fighters = 82 IPC
His maths are fine, he said:
7 cruisers and a BC ( 20 ) for 104 ( which is exactly the fleet you proposed.)
3 AC and 6 fighters for 102
That sub can be fun to use coupled with Russian bombers, as a marauder very late game in the Indian Ocean ( around round 5-6 ). Could even get deadly serious for Japan with 2 more subs and bombers stationed in caucasus.
Anyways, it’s not a very useful peice but can in worst case be played as canon fodder if germany uses subs later on.
Germany needs to be building tanks, not destroyers or ships of any kind. the DD you start with, plus you buy1 DD, 1 Cruiser, 1 Carrier, and your 2 fighters that you start with, is plenty to deter germany from attacking your british fleet. The cost is 34 for that. If germany wants to expend her entire air force destroying my ships, go right ahead, but she is going to lose all of it (and that is only the UK fleet mind you, the USA is still around). As far as the American fleet goes, I only buy 1 carrier, since you start with 2 DD and 1 carrier plus 4 fighters. America’s fleet will never be in range of all of germany’s fighters, usually just the fighters in france, so two separate groups of 1DD + 1 Carrier + 2 fighters will work just fine. Sometimes I do buy 1 Cruiser also as America, but I never spend more than 26 ipcs on America’s warships. All of that money you guys are spending on warships could be spent on transports and guys. You should have 4 transports with with 4 inf and 4 tanks flowing out of the UK by turn 3. You should have a chain of around 8 transports flowing out of the USA by turn 3, and that increases all the way up to 12 by turn 5. You guys need to buy less ships and more boots. If Germany does actually buy ships and fighters instead of tanks, then you have to buy some extra ships and fighters/bombers too. But that is great because now Russia can crush a weakened Germany who has fewer tanks.
It’s completely useless. I’d rather have the 2 extra infantry in Karelia.
Veqryn:
I don’t think you read the scenario (which is pretty common.) The allies have one or two nations set up to perform 8 shore bombardments each (so potentially 16 shore bombardments per game round.) If you figure half of them hit, which is realistic since they hit on a 3 or a 4, then you are looking at the loss of about 8 units a round (since Germany can only build 10 units, that’s almost the entire round’s production!) That could realistically be as high as 12 or as little as 4, but 8 seems appropriate.
Now, most of us choose infantry first, so let’s assume you have a large stack of infantry and that’s your losses. 8 Hits = 24 IPC worth of units lost. 1 Destroyer = 8 IPC and negates at least one nation’s shore bombardments (since you cannot perform a shore bombardment AND attack naval units in the same turn.) If you negate one nation, you negate about half the hits. Therefore, you could expect a destroyer build to save 4 infantry. That is, an 8 IPC investment into a destroyer saves 4 infantry which is 12 IPC in value AND gives you 4 fodder pieces to defend with!
What I propose is, if you go this route, keep the Russian submarine in range of SZ 5. This could deter Germany from building the destroyer to stop England’s shore bombardments (usually England engages in this, since America goes Africa, Pacific or Russia). If they do build the destroyer, you can attack with the submarine, that is otherwise pretty useless, and some air power if you have it (I recommend you buy it!)
EM:
I’d trade the sub in for a tank any day! But we are given the submarine, so we have to figure out a way to use it!
Used against the German DD as described above would be useful. I modify my statement to almost completely useless. :-D
Comic relief. It can suck to be Russia some games.
