Lets Talk Neutrals!

[Emperor_Taiki]

and should spain really be woth the same as the caucasus?

[Imperious Leader]

Spain includes Portugal and also all the various colonies.  ( angola and a few others)

I know for a fact that it cant be lower than 3 IPC and 4 is rather optimistic, but i consider its strategic advantage to the axis as the axis navy can freely sail out into the Atlantic and not have any pressure.

ok modify it to 3.

[Upside-down_Turtle]

You could split it into Spain and Portugal if you wanted.  People do the same w/ Italy.

[Imperious Leader]

FMG is making pieces for the game. They are not making a new map

our job is to come up with ideas for the various pieces and equipment that they may consider for production. I can say for sure that nobody is gonna make a decal set for placing decals over the map for new countries…. or what thats a good idea…sort of.

[Upside-down_Turtle]

@Imperious:

FMG is making pieces for the game. They are not making a new map

our job is to come up with ideas for the various pieces and equipment that they may consider for production.

I know that.  I’m just throwing out ideas to make ET happy. :roll:

[Emperor_Taiki]

@Imperious:

a decal set for placing decals over the map for new countries…. or what thats a good idea…sort of.

yes, that is a good idea

[Upside-down_Turtle]

@Emperor_Taiki:

@Imperious:

a decal set for placing decals over the map for new countries…. or what thats a good idea…sort of.

yes, that is a good idea

Ditto

Not sure if I’d buy it.

[LuckyDay]

@Emperor_Taiki:

@LuckyDay:

@Emperor_Taiki:

@LuckyDay:

Many jumped on board with the Allies before it all ended to get a better spot at the table of the UN.

effectivly a country like that is still neutral

wow….that’s profound.  wrong, but profound.

In what way is that wrong?

A country that declares war but adds no IPCs or units or anything connected to the game has not joined the war in a way the is relavent to Axis and Allies.

There’s official, and then there’s official.  declaring neutrality and not allowing involvement are very different.  dang, Spain wasn’t even ‘neutral’. Ireland let allied prisoners ‘escape’ and the plane that found the Bismark was based in Ireland.  Without the oil from Venezuela or Saudi Arabia the Allies would have had a hard time.  Without the iron ore from Sweden Germany would have run out of panzers.

example 1–spain:  sent the blue division, plus a fighter wing to the Eastern Front to help the Germans, ahem, they were ‘volunteers’
from wiki-Spain in World War II, under General Franco, was officially non-belligerent during the war. This status, although not recognised by international law, was intended to express the regime’s sympathy and material support for the Axis Powers, to which the Spanish State offered considerable material, economic, and military assistance… Meanwhile, individual Spaniards and tens of thousands of exiled leftist Republicans contributed to the Allied war effort.

example 2–sweden:  Sweden maintained neutrality throughout the war, though some Swedish volunteers participated in the Winter War as well as in the Continuation War against the Soviet Union. Sweden also supplied many materials for Germany, in particular high-quality iron ore which enabled Germany to build up its army, and ball bearings which were crucial for military hardware… In all, close to 100,000 railroad cars had transported two million German soldiers trough Sweden

example 3–Venezuela:  produced vast oil supplies for the Allies. It maintained a relative neutrality until the last years of war, when it finally declared war on Germany and the rest of the Axis countries.

example 4–Saudi Arabia: Saudi Arabia did sever diplomatic contacts with Germany on September 11, 1939, and with Japan in October 1941. Although officially neutral, the Saudis did provide the Allies with large supplies of oil… The Americans were then allowed to build an air force base near Dhahran. On February 28, 1945, Saudi Arabia declared war on Germany and Japan,

@Emperor_Taiki:

and if it is wrong how is it profound?

that was sarcasm… :wink:

[Emperor_Taiki]

LuckyDay

so how do you propose that these countries that half join the war show up in the game, obviosly all there income and units should not become under the control of a certain player

and instead of showing us how witty you are, cause were all sure your very smart

why dont you grow up and explain what your talking about

[Bardoly]

Well, one way to implement the neutrals would be to have another player (in FTF games) control all of the neutrals which sway towards the Axis and another player control all of the neutrals which sway towards the Allies.  Each individual country would have its own IC and IPC value with which it could purchase units and attack and defend just like all of the other countries.

[Imperious Leader]

and if none of the major powers deals with any neutrals this extra player is doing nothing except watching. How fun is that?

[Bardoly]

@Imperious:

and if none of the major powers deals with any neutrals this extra player is doing nothing except watching. How fun is that?

I was not saying that it would be fun.  I was saying that this would be the ideal situation.  Since the ideal situation probably won’t happen, then the best way to do this is probably something like what you did in AARHE.  I printed out the AARHE and played with your diplomacy rules for the neutrals, and it worked okay.

[LuckyDay]

@Emperor_Taiki:

and instead of showing us how witty you are, cause were all sure your very smart

…thank you…

[LuckyDay]

@Emperor_Taiki:

so how do you propose that these countries that half join the war show up in the game, obviosly all there income and units should not become under the control of a certain player
and instead of showing us how witty you are, cause were all sure your very smart
why dont you grow up and explain what your talking about

hey, i was just answering your question.

we’ve used these rules for adding several of the countries into our AA50 games with positive results:  http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=13966.0

However, after discussion here and within our local group, I personally like the aforementioned variation on the tech rules to be utilized for the encompassing number of neutrals.

I am thinking that instead of the block of countries to take each neutral, save the himalayas, the sahara, mongolia, and probably afghanistan, (just leave impassible) which leaves 11 by my count, and allow players to pick one per turn to purchase diplomat chips at 5 ipc each (with a min investment of 2 each time), then roll for a 6.  if they get it, the country falls under their control.  There was much variation from country to country as to their leanings in the war and would rather leave each independent of the rest.
  While the combat variation is nice, ie, i like it, fun to shoot and all that jazz, utilizing the  dice roll with cost can take place of enough of the cost of fighting to abstract it as well and not clutter the board further.  Additionally, there is the aspect that while certainly debatable, the ‘neutral’ countries really didn’t have the military muscle to generate the kind of conflict that should take the time in the game.
  Territories, as some represent more than one then need some IPC value assigned to each and once connected with a player’s nation, fall under the normal rules of such.  Thus could afford potentially a fairly simple and hopefully effective way of adding these into play.
  Anyhow, that’s the direction I’m leaning, and we’ll be trying it out in the next week or so

[Emperor_Taiki]

@LuckyDay:

…thank you…

cute

[Imperious Leader]

I printed out the AARHE and played with your diplomacy rules for the neutrals, and it worked okay.

Just okay???  Its supposed to work perfectly. What would you have it differently?

just wondering.

[Bardoly]

@Imperious:

I printed out the AARHE and played with your diplomacy rules for the neutrals, and it worked okay.

Just okay???  Its supposed to work perfectly. What would you have it differently?

just wondering.

My group played with the AARHE map/including Italy (but without most of the rule changes, because most of the group wanted simplicity).  The concensus was that adding Italy was cool and putting the neutral armies out on the board added to the fun factor, but after a few (4-6, I don’t remember exactly.) games, and America always getting Spain and puting an IC there, several of the players got tired of losing as the Axis, and just stopped playing until AA50 came out.  Since AA50 came out, we haven’t played a single game of AARHE.

I was happy with the AARHE diplomacy rules.  My statement was a reflection of my group’s concensus, and should not be construed as criticism at all.

If I were to change anything at all, I guess I would try to make it slightly easier for the Axis-leaning nations to become Axis and the Allied-leaning nations to become Allies, or at least, forbid the Axis-leaning nations to ever join the Allies unless attacked by the Axis and vice a versa.  We had too many games where all of the Allied diplomacy rolls went to sway Spain, and Spain usually joined the Allies by or before rounds 5-6.

[Emperor_Taiki]

Yah it should just be immposibel for nations that lean torwards one side to join the other
What political conditions in the real world would hae lead to spain joining the allies or even allowing them to build up troops and invade europe from there.

[LuckyDay]

@Bardoly:

and America always getting Spain and puting an IC there,

what about if ‘neutrals’ were not allowed as IC build locations.  Then the Allies would have to think more about backing up a diplomatic success with troops, lest the Axis swoop in and snag it away?

[Emperor_Taiki]

@LuckyDay:

what about if ‘neutrals’ were not allowed as IC build locations.  Then the Allies would have to think more about backing up a diplomatic success with troops, lest the Axis swoop in and snag it away?

do you think it should cost something to declare war on a neutral?
otherwise the Axis can swoop in and snag Spain whether it is with the allies or not.

I dont really like this converting neutrals that are pro-axis to the allies. I dont see what it has to do with World War 2, especially when the game starts in 1941.