German Tank Rush

[SewrRatt]

So last night I played a game of AA50 in which the germans built nothing but tanks. 6 on G1, 9 on G2 and then 10 after. I failed miserably in the atlantic, but with just germany’s starting tanks plus the tanks from G1 and G2 (a total of 22), and whatever other units survive to accompany them, Germany can just plow right through to Russia and on G4 kill practically any force Russia can muster. I tested it out with TripleA and even with a crazy conserve infantry strategy, the only build for those three turns Russia can do that will save Moscow is 10 infantry/turn. If you build offensive units in any quantity you lose. So if Germany does this the only thing Russia can do is turtle with infantry, having no offensive power whatsoever, and Germany can just waltz around taking Karelia, Caucasus and all the land around Moscow. Anyone have any ideas about how to counter this? The only thing I can think of is pressuring Germany as fast as possible with UK/US, but with strong tank forces being built in Berlin every turn and all the russian land Germany can take quickly, I’m not sure they can do anything fast enough.

[takerwwe5849]

yea, GB do SBR on Berlin

[murraymoto]

With all that armor heading to Moscow/Karelia/Caucasus you should be able to get something into France to help turn their attention back to the West, or is Italy just protecting their flank?
 Somewhere there has to be something that gives if they are sending all that focus in one direction.  (how cliche right?), but still.  If Russia can hold with just INF, then the storm can be weathered.  A couple Allied fighters could help in the end as well even with the loss of the NO, if it will keep them in the game for a couple extra rounds.  
Africa could be open, France could be open, Italy could be open, Karelia couldn’t be too heavily defended if the drive is straight on to Moscow, do not pass go.

[takerwwe5849]

yea, if i was playing allies, i would have us fly bombers over to the uk and then hit the tank stacks if it looks like the russian lines are going to break, maybe accompanied with a uk landing force. uk would be able to have Battleships and transports ready to hit France/Germany before Rusia would fall.  Japan landing in India could help Germany though, Japan would probably have to assist in Africa also, but then the US would be able to help in Europe without major Japanese forces in the Pacific

[Veqryn]

Strategic Bombing is not effective in the first 4 turns against Germany, if you have NOs on.
I prefer to bomb Italy if I bomb anyone in the first 4 turns.
As long as Germany is collecting her 3 NOs, your strategic bombing forces him from buying 10 tanks a turn into buying 5 tanks and 5 inf at worst.  However, Once you start to land troops in france or poland, or italy or the balkans, and russia has recovered and can defend both Karelia and the Caucasus, and Germany is not collecting 3 NOs anymore, only 1 or 2, THEN strat bombing germany begins to become very effective.

[jemo81]

@Veqryn:

Strategic Bombing is not effective in the first 4 turns against Germany, if you have NOs on.
I prefer to bomb Italy if I bomb anyone in the first 4 turns.
As long as Germany is collecting her 3 NOs, your strategic bombing forces him from buying 10 tanks a turn into buying 5 tanks and 5 inf at worst.  However, Once you start to land troops in france or poland, or italy or the balkans, and russia has recovered and can defend both Karelia and the Caucasus, and Germany is not collecting 3 NOs anymore, only 1 or 2, THEN strat bombing germany begins to become very effective.

I don’t quite agree with your remark that it is not efective to bomb germany until after turn 4. UK can bomb germany from r1 and onward and supplement with more bombers is they have room in their economy. US can bomb with 2 bombers from round 2 and potentially 5 bombers from round 3. UK can from round 1 also begin to put ashore units in e.g north west europe, which is very often abandonned, forcing germany to take back the territory to regain their 1 NO. Additionally if germany build all tanks and moves them more or less directly to moscow, the Uk must definetly be in a position to retake carelia (if the germans went that way of course). If the germans went for causacuc, then capturing poland might be possible and thus the russians have the potential to get both of their NOs = 15 extra IPCs.

In any case I would only welcome a germany going all in in tanks as a focused effort to hold the italians down combined with landings in france would very quickly give germany a run for their money.

[Veqryn]

as long as germany is getting all 3 NOs, bombiner Italy is more effective

[bugoo]

Depends on the situation on if bombing G is good or bad.  If they are going tank dash then if you can drop them around 40 ipc or less than bombing is good as it is fewer tanks headed to moscow, if they are going turtle and making 40 though then its less effective.

Against this it is best to land UK troops in Karelia, lots of 'em, 6-8 a turn starting turn 2, along with heavy US landings in africa to choke Italy’s income.  Also, be sure to hold Persia at all costs to keep the Japs from breaking threw, move the India forces back + TJ forces + 2-4 russians on R2.  Do not abandon Kar on R2, esp if G bought 6 tanks.  Build 2 inf there, stack everything in range there, and land the UK figs there if you must on turn 1.  Keeping G from getting all 3 NOs without loosing stacks of units is a huge mistake when going KGF.  On turn 2 let the british begin to stack it, along with taking norway/finland and/or SBRs, germany will never build 10 armor.  Forget about the 1st Russian NO, its better for russia to loose 5 than to give G 7.  Germany should only, if ever, get 3 NOs for 1 turn (2 or 3), and be down to 1 NO in mid game (4-5).

Then you want to either take Italy, or take and hold France or NWE.  Do not trade France with more than 2 units and don’t prioritize trading france for a turn over dumping 8 units into Karelia if you cannot hold it!  Do not take Italy if you cannot hold it.  Do not build more defensive boats than you must.  I see ally players get there fleets all out of wack by going for a quick Italy/France trade, or drop 6 units into france a turn to get destroyed a 2-4 G units and air, or build more boats than G has planes.  These actions will cost you the war!  At some point, around turn 4, you must make your move and do a large drop into France or NWE or Italy and hold the territory.  Remember, NWE is worth the same as Karelia to Germany.

[Veqryn]

@bugoo:

Depends on the situation on if bombing G is good or bad.  If they are going tank dash then if you can drop them around 40 ipc or less than bombing is good as it is fewer tanks headed to moscow, if they are going turtle and making 40 though then its less effective.

Against this it is best to land UK troops in Karelia, lots of 'em, 6-8 a turn starting turn 2, along with heavy US landings in africa to choke Italy’s income.  Also, be sure to hold Persia at all costs to keep the Japs from breaking threw, move the India forces back + TJ forces + 2-4 russians on R2.  Do not abandon Kar on R2, esp if G bought 6 tanks.  Build 2 inf there, stack everything in range there, and land the UK figs there if you must on turn 1.  Keeping G from getting all 3 NOs without loosing stacks of units is a huge mistake when going KGF.  On turn 2 let the british begin to stack it, along with taking norway/finland and/or SBRs, germany will never build 10 armor.  Forget about the 1st Russian NO, its better for russia to loose 5 than to give G 7.  Germany should only, if ever, get 3 NOs for 1 turn (2 or 3), and be down to 1 NO in mid game (4-5).

Then you want to either take Italy, or take and hold France or NWE.  Do not trade France with more than 2 units and don’t prioritize trading france for a turn over dumping 8 units into Karelia if you cannot hold it!  Do not take Italy if you cannot hold it.  Do not build more defensive boats than you must.  I see ally players get there fleets all out of wack by going for a quick Italy/France trade, or drop 6 units into france a turn to get destroyed a 2-4 G units and air, or build more boats than G has planes.  These actions will cost you the war!  At some point, around turn 4, you must make your move and do a large drop into France or NWE or Italy and hold the territory.  Remember, NWE is worth the same as Karelia to Germany.

Great stuff
The thing I get most wracked with myself during a game, is if I am playing as America I can have 6-8 transports bringing troops from America to North Africa, but the second I decide to use some transports to pick guys up from North Africa and drop them off in France/Norway/Italy I am screwed for one whole turn as my transport chain has to adjust.  Not only that, but if Germany has fighters in France, or a Bomber in Germany, I now have to defend 2 stacks of Transports within range.

[bugoo]

I have found with trading france as the US (if axis pull out or only leave a few inf) it is worth it to sacrifice a transport.  A transport with 2 inf costs you 13 IPCs, france is worth 11, but, G has to send in 2 inf to take it back.  Taking Italy is very similar if your only doing it for a round, it is typically worth it to suicide a transport or 2.  Now with the UK sacrificing a transport usually is not worth it as Italy can just take it back.  My typical US shuck is a bit odd though.  I like to send over around 3 trannies to start with, leaving the inf in algeria and sending the armor toward Persia.  Then i only shuck over armor and build up more trannies, up to about 6.  In the end, around US 5, I have 6 transports in SZ 12, with 6 inf in algeria, a smatering of armor headed at persia, and 6 arm in algeria, along with 3-6 bombers (also in algeria to threaten Jap landings in Africa) and 2-4 figs on carriers.  This brings a huge amount of threat against Italy and France, and if the UK takes france i’ll land my planes there if it will give me the odds I need to hold it.  Let the UK shuck into russia, there closer, and the armor in Persia really keeps the odds in your favor.

[dondoolee]

@SewrRatt:

So last night I played a game of AA50 in which the germans built nothing but tanks. 6 on G1, 9 on G2 and then 10 after. I failed miserably in the atlantic, but with just germany’s starting tanks plus the tanks from G1 and G2 (a total of 22), and whatever other units survive to accompany them, Germany can just plow right through to Russia and on G4 kill practically any force Russia can muster. I tested it out with TripleA and even with a crazy conserve infantry strategy, the only build for those three turns Russia can do that will save Moscow is 10 infantry/turn. If you build offensive units in any quantity you lose. So if Germany does this the only thing Russia can do is turtle with infantry, having no offensive power whatsoever, and Germany can just waltz around taking Karelia, Caucasus and all the land around Moscow. Anyone have any ideas about how to counter this? The only thing I can think of is pressuring Germany as fast as possible with UK/US, but with strong tank forces being built in Berlin every turn and all the russian land Germany can take quickly, I’m not sure they can do anything fast enough.

Depending on the breaks the Allies get on T1 sometimes it can’t really be counterd.

But if Germany is really gunning for Russia, the best thing to do is UK1 pull all forces that can reach into Persia (hopefully Egy fig and Arm as well) and move them in the Cauc if you need to for round 2, build a fleet that can not be sunk on T2 and start pumping guys through Fin/Nor/Kar/Poland to help the USSR, don’t worry about Russia’s NO.  On USA T1 build a fleet that can not be sunk, and if you feel you can a transport and a bomber.  Move the US fleet toward Africa so you are simultaneously threating France/Italy/Balkans/Africa.  Build bombers if you have the luxury to and keep SBRing Italy.

As for Russia, if it keeps falling T4, remember it can only hold 2 fronts (Example it can only defend the Caucaus and Moscow while having to sacrifice Karelia) if under severe pressure, the most deadly thing Russia can do is over-extend, this can set it up for a nasty 1-2 Italy/Germany punch.  If you can on T1 or 2 stack as much you can afford to stack in Belrussia or E UK to create a good deadzone, this may slow down Germany’s attack a little bit.

[Octopus]

As Germany and Italy, I do anything possible to screw up the American shuck. I offer territories for free to try to sucker the transports and get them off schedule for the ultimately means 2 or 3 turns for 1 load of American troops.

I can adjust to defeat that one load, but it becomes really difficult to defeat many consecutive loads.

As the Allies, pick a target and stay focused.  If you decide America is going to hit Africa, KEEP DOING IT!

If you decide to pound France, KEEP DOING IT! It is only when you switch targets does your attack become weaker than it should.

Oh, England should focus on distrupting supply to the Eastern Front. Dropping 1 Infantry in Poland will keep German Armor from moving 2 spaces (just an example of slowing down supply).

Good Luck!

[Lynxes]

My thinking on Allied Europe strategies right now is that it should follow a step-by-step approach. This is due to NOs and the potential Axis build-up, you need to strike at key objectives before they get too difficult to defeat:

1. Italian navy, turn 2 or 3, not later. To do this you need to build 1 US CV and 1-2 bombers on turn 1 and then transfer bombers into Russia and Africa and the CV to sz12 so as to be able to strike at sz15 off Egypt if Italy hide their fleet there.
2. Scandinavia invasions, turn 2 and on, this is to get UK income up or even buy a US IC in Norway, a preparation for later in the game. UK might need to bail out Russia in Karelia at this stage, turns 2-4, that is before your invasions of Europe force the Germans to send most reinforcements west.
3. Algeria invasions, should be around 4 units per turn, US is best suited for this and should set up a shuck from East US of 2+2 transports at least.
4. France/NWE invasions, needs to be double, both UK and US and with a total of 14-16 units per turn (usually 3 or 4 trs as UK and 3+3 or 4+4 as US). At this stage you thus need a double shuck as US, one from ECA and one from EUS and yes you need to defend both sea zones 7 and 12. If Africa already is secure, you might get around not having to invade ALG each turn, but the odds are Japan is knocking on Africa’s door and then you don’t have much choice since losing Africa means your UK ally is crippled. If you’ve built your bombers, CVs and DDs as US, you will at this stage put all money into feeding your fleet of 10-12 transports with up to 12 land units/turn. That’s the only way to break the spine of Axis European defences where you must expect a “turtle”-strategy with an IC in France and very heavy land forces.

[Butcher]

What is Poland being held with? A tank dash would be going straight through Poland without ever stopping there. So droping a small ground force could screw up the tank dash long enough for Russia to hold out. You can land one transport worth of ground units there on turn 2 if needed.

[Octopus]

why didn’t I think of that?

[Butcher]

Sorry Octopus, I didn’t finish reading your entire post  :roll:

[bugoo]

A note on the poland drop, it will NOT slow down the armor.

I retake it with a few inf and planes, then on my non combat move the armor moves to where it needs to be.  Yes you can do it.

[dondoolee]

@bugoo:

A note on the poland drop, it will NOT slow down the armor.

I retake it with a few inf and planes, then on my non combat move the armor moves to where it needs to be.  Yes you can do it.

the OP said he built “nothing but tanks”, so in the case refering to his post it can’t be done.  Even so, instead of just dropping in 1 inf, the Brits can go anywhere between 1-8 usually.

[joh01749]

I agree with the others that with a complete tank rush, if the Brits have 3-4 transports along with troops to drop off on B3 (which is completely doable) they should be able to take one of many territories such as Poland or France. There is just no way that Germany can defend it’s coastline if they are only building tanks.

[panzer666]

germany should only build all tanks first and 2nd round.J1 must send 2 fighters into the indian ocean at a cost to the china takeover,so the brits don’t reinforce egypt.russia must do nothing except defend against the tank blitz