Looking for Axis ideas against my clan's new Allies campaign

[joh01749]

So I’ve been playing with this crew for a while with the Axis victory often. (with NOs and tech). We almost never spend money on tech, and the last few games the allies are winning with this new KGF plan. I’m looking for some ideas on how to slow this down and hopefully crush it completely. I’ve been running through some scenarios on AAA and I’m looking for some extra thoughts.

The main thought is this:

B1: complex, BB
US1: 5 TS, 1am; plus pull EVERYTHING out of the pacific. This will leave 7TS outside the EUS at the end of turn 2. Also bring 2 bombers to UK to SBR germany

B2: 2 AM for complex, CA, other heavy navy
US2: build enough INF and ART to load all 7 transports

B3: build more navies as well as a couple TS (continue 2AM at complex)
US3: build all FGT and move all navies to SZ8

B4: build two more TS making a total of 4 and build INF/ARM pairs to fill each, move navies to SZ7
US4: build more troops for the 2nd load if needed.

Then on turn 5 just when japan is moving the huge army into the Caucasus B5 has the unload of 4 transports with the backup unloading in France or Germany along with the 14 guys from the americans backing it up and landing all the fighters there for defense.

I’ve tried building navies right away as germany for a change to see if that helps, but the navies still get crushed and the allies land this huge force anyway on T5. If germany turtles up then I feel like the strong russia play will be too much.

Any thoughts much appreciated.

[keplar]

japan has to threaten the US constantly to force them to spend in the pacific right away

[joh01749]

The problem is that no matter what I throw over there to ‘threaten’ the US their plan remains the same. If I really have an invasion fleet over there a la Polar Express or whatnot the US3 buy and others becomes strictly defenders of the coast and there is no way to bring enough japanese to attack through for sure 2 buys completely toward the coastal defense. So regardless of japan’s movements there is 7US and 4-7B transports of guys coming into Germany. Their thought being once Germany falls Italy is right behind it, which is mostly true.

[gnasape]

What does Germany do on round 1?

Here is a comprehensive axis approach for 1941 courtesy of IL

http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=12868.45

I would think that if US was buying nothing but TS (I am assuming transports) and no capital ships (only UK supplying capital ships) would be vunerable to the German airforce since US and UK has to synchronize their moves, you need to take advantage of it.

[axis_roll]

The polar express (japan pressure on USA) is a good thought.

Others ideas:

With a major Germany turtle (IC in France?) and Japanese ftrs in europe, all Germany has to do is hold Germany, France and to some extent Italy.  Japan is on Russias door step by round 5, can Germany hold out till round 7?  I think so, playing very conservatively.

You can hit and w/d the major allied stack once it lands to keep their total threat down.

Another option is a strong German airforce to cause the allies to spend more on capital ships, especially with those Japanese ftrs mulling around.

[joh01749]

My usual Germany buy has been 1 FTR per round, and then mostly ARM and some INF. The thought being that I should crush Russia as fast as possible. With Italy trying to sack Africa and money allowing reinforce France.

The brits mass their navy in SZ2 first and second turn. Having a loaded CV there with the 2BB assuming their BB gets taken out G1. On the third turn they move to SZ8 with the americans showing up there as well with their loaded CV and 2DD. Since they both move before the germans get a chance to get, the navy there looks like a combined (again assuming only SZ9 survival at the end of G1):
3BB, 2CV, 4FGT, 3DD, and a little more depending on Britain’s cash.

It seems like the Luftwaffe needed to wipe that out would be large enough that the money going into it would make the russian front impossible.

[axis_roll]

@joh01749:

It seems like the Luftwaffe needed to wipe that out would be large enough that the money going into it would make the russian front impossible.

I’d buy almost exclusively inf and art then for Germany/Italy with an IC in France for Germany and hold on.

Since the allies are putting all their eggs in the mass invasion idea, then Germany just needs to stay alive as long as possible and wait for Japans help in the form of a fallen Russia (and back door pressure on USA, even to tie up SOME units).

[Lynxes]

My German strategy doesn’t depend on air force buys, they are not cost-effective. I try to conserve the at-start air force as long as possible but rarely buy air units unless I have such a clear advantage I can afford it. You have to kill off the UK battleship on turn 1 and take Egypt, but after that focus on massive infantry and armor buys, including an IC in France built on turn 2. With 16 units/round, if you can trade Karelia to get the third NO, you can be very resilient. Buy something like 10-12 inf, 3-4 arm per round, send 4-6 inf and the armor east and the rest stack-up France. Italy should also be buying mostly land units although some navy buys can be nice as well to keep your fleet alive a bit longer. If the Allies don’t go into the Mediterranean at all and only go for France, Italy should be able to move heavy land forces as well into France.

[joh01749]

Thanks for these ideas. I’m going to try a German mass turtle on AAA tonight and see what happens. I didn’t think about trying the IC in France. Just take enough of Russia to get the NOs for germany and hold on as best as possible not thinking about invading moscow with the germans.

[Flying Tiger]

Try moving half of Japanese navy into the Med. While they’re backing up Italy with major force Italy will be contesting Africa.

[tarkonis]

Id like to see how your turtle goes :)

BTW… your allied plan on B1 states that you buy an IC… Where are you placing it?

[joh01749]

the Brits build the complex in Egypt idealy, so if it actually survives through turn 1, otherwise they have been putting it in SA.

[tarkonis]

How did the turtle go?

[SgtBlitz]

joh01749:

Have you tried stacking Axis navies in the med?  If you build a german complex on france you can build carriers in mediterranean with germany and italy and have japan’s fleet come through the suez J3.  3+ carriers on one SZ is hard for any of the allied players to chew through by themselves, and it prevents allies from helping out russia overmuch.  If the allies ignore the fleet you’ve basically got africa and asia in the bag, Britain and US are stuck with invading either WE or over land through north africa, just turtle with the rest of your moves with germany and the game should finish itself.

Kinda risky with Russia bearing down but its won me more than one game.  Allies lose a lot of options (and fleet) if you don’t concede the oceans to them.

[joh01749]

The turtle went alright… The first game it worked great, did exactly what I wanted it to do and the allies were crying, lol. Although the second time the crew made some changes and I had a hard time keeping them from taking France while holding the NOs for Germany. As soon as the complex was built in France it received a TON of attention and became problematic.

@SgtBlitz:

joh01749:

Have you tried stacking Axis navies in the med?  If you build a german complex on france you can build carriers in mediterranean with germany and italy and have japan’s fleet come through the suez J3.  3+ carriers on one SZ is hard for any of the allied players to chew through by themselves, and it prevents allies from helping out russia overmuch.  If the allies ignore the fleet you’ve basically got africa and asia in the bag, Britain and US are stuck with invading either WE or over land through north africa, just turtle with the rest of your moves with germany and the game should finish itself.

Kinda risky with Russia bearing down but its won me more than one game.  Allies lose a lot of options (and fleet) if you don’t concede the oceans to them.

I like the idea of building up navies in the Med with the France industry… I haven’t explored that much. I agree though, it is very risky. It almost forces the Japanese strong push on Russia. If it holds though I see the benefit. You’re right, 3 CV loaded next to Gibraltar is pretty insane and puts a huge hurt on the allies trying to do work in Africa. I feel like it’s going to be hard to find the IPCs to build that kind of fleet though while holding off the Russians. On my second trial turtle I’ve been making a heavy push on the Japanese SBR of Moscow. So at least by J5, hopefully J4 I’ve got two bombers putting the IPC hurt on Russia since it’s difficult to get enough land troops there in time. Plus after seeing the turtle the crew diverted a chunk of Russian IPCs toward fighting off the Japanese backdoor run. This worked pretty well given the minimal effort I was putting in to the German offensive. After seeing the first turtle win I pulled out the allies pushed hard for France as well as making some serious thought about abandoning the Pacific completely.

I’m going to try out building some serious navy in the Med and see what happens. I think it will put a serious hurt on the allies landing efforts, I’m just worried about holding off a strong Russian play.

[SgtBlitz]

I’m going to try out building some serious navy in the Med and see what happens. I think it will put a serious hurt on the allies landing efforts, I’m just worried about holding off a strong Russian play.

Hehe, nice.  Just don’t go overboard with it, (haha naval combat overboard haha), if you’re worried about Russia.  I ended up building most of my naval units with 25ish ipc italy (sub fodder) and adding them to the stack each turn, and completely turtling with Germany, building around 15-16 inf a turn with the france IC.  Germany can only really afford one or two turns of naval/IC production before Russia starts getting scary.

[Zhukov44]

Well, without a bid to the Allies the turtle strategy Lynxes described will win almost every time…the key is buying lots of inf with Germany/Italy and developing Japan as fast as possible (ie, get up to 7 transports, build inf for about 3 turns, then almost all armor, build factories J2 in Sumatra, J3 in Manch, J4 in India).  I’m not big on buying any Axis fleet in the Med unless USA is focused on Japan and not buying bombers for Europe–instead sneak a Jap carrier up there if possible.  How is UK buying a complex in Egypt early on…are you attacking Egypt?  Unless there is a bid to Egypt I’d hit it every game…otherwise Italy will never get its NO.  If you go with the turtle, once Italy gets its NO then the Allies shouldn’t be able to post a credible threat to France because Italy should be producing 6 land units a turn while Germany produces 13-16 a turn.  Sure, Allies will get Africa eventually but by then France should be totally stacked and Japan should be producing a massive wave of Hondas that will crush Moscow.

[joh01749]

I agree, the Egypt IC doesn’t happen that often. I like to use the G bomber along with the two subs to get the BB instead of bringing the bomber down to Egypt. There have been a few times that Egypt survives G1 with the FT and AR and after reinforcing the two INF from Trans-Jordan (sometimes two INF from India, when a defiant/dumb Japan refuses to sack the navy there) survives I1.

I’ve come to the same conclusion as you Zhukov44 that navy buys in the Med as germany is almost wasted money. I had some luck with building two CVs there in consecutive turns, but I also have been buying a FT with Germany every round. I’ll check out the mass INF turtle and see how that goes. With my crew’s standard US strategy of all Atlantic the extra navy ended up being easy IPC kills. With the two loaded CVs along with the Italian starting navy (most of my italy buys have been troops since I build a second TS and unload into Africa) I held off the Allies for 2-3 more turns landing into Africa or Europe. It’s an ever present threat having the 4 FT and usually 2-3 Bombers in Germany for the Allies navy. It really forces the US to build more heavy ships in the Atlantic to go with their copious TS or else the brits have to spend lots of extra cash to build a navy to beat it up. My crew hasn’t done it yet, but when playing AAA by my lonesome, a large sub buy as Britain did bad things for my CV fleet… especially when the brits got super subs…

You really like the three industry buy as Japan? I’ve been digging on the Sumatra and India ICs but I’m not sold on Manchuria yet. It seems like I could use that 15 IPCs elsewhere better. Especially given my hard Japanese push for China and India. Along with the 6-7 TS I don’t think that third one is needed. I also am a proponent of moving hard for India on J2, and having that industry buy 1st turn takes away from my ability to take and hold India. Then those fraking 7 russian INF pose a serious threat. Everyone in the clan, including myself, like to leave the 7 INF in Buryatia as a stopper. Not that it will stop Japan for long, but you at least have to make an effort to take it out.

I’ve been thinking about pushing the russian backdoor as hard as I’m doing to India, instead of india, but I just don’t see a large enough benefit in doing that. If I’m not going to get India I always get Australia on J2 so the Brits don’t get their NO. But using the Manchuria route into Russia isn’t worth a whole lot of IPCs, which maybe doesn’t matter given the obvious domination of China. But I also like the industry in India because it easily allows troop movement to Africa.

So after playing several AAA games, my best strat has been this Germany turtle, take India J2 with sumatra IC, India IC J3, 2-3 Bombers J4 and then from J5 on I SBR Russia while moving troops in there. With that in mind, Germany only needs to survive through the 5th turn before the Russians start taking some heavy damage for the rest of the game. This worked well with the FT buys as germany and two CVs added to the Med to hold off the allies for a couple more turns, bringing me to T5, T6 threshold before any serious non-russian threat to Germany. Again I’ll try the heavy INF instead of buying the CVs and see if that works as well/better.

[axis_roll]

Don’t forget the Japanese help either in the Med with a carrier (or two?) or strictly defensive ftrs in Europe.  Really can help slow the allies alot.

[Zhukov44]

If you take India early and build there then I could see forgoing the Manchuria IC.  I typically need the Sumatra one right away to maximize production since I’m buying lots of inf early (assuming KGF of course).  Then I need another one–so if I can secure India by then that’s great but otherwise its Manch (ie I generally give more priority to getting as many men as I can off Japan and denying the USA its Pacific NO than I do India in the first turns–this may be a mistake I’m not sure yet).  But with NOs Japan’s income can eventually justify another mainland factory and Manch is a pretty good place for a tank factory feeding tanks through China.