L21 #2 ArtofWar1947 (AX+12) vs. Trulpen (AL) PTV

[ArtofWar1947]

@artofwar1947

I have a recollection that when PTV first came out, several Pacific SZs (including possibly SZ 46 and 47?) were not separated, and so movement required only 2 spaces instead of the actual 3.

[trulpen]

@artofwar1947 said in L21 #2 ArtofWar1947 (AX+12) vs. Trulpen (AL) PTV:

If it takes only 2 spaces to move from SZ 55 to SZ 45, I would have put a DD in SZ 45 so that I could have protested the trans there.

That makes perfect sense. We can fix that. Then I’d like to change the US-move and attack atleast a des.

[trulpen]

The separation of sz by DNG is one of the latest changes.

I’ll post a screenshot below to show what it looks like. It’s not the same for you?

If you started the game with an earlier map version, then the map will look right (atleast for me), but behave differently.

[trulpen]

So, I’ll edit the des from z38 to z45 along with the tr.

Then as the map stands I’d like to attack the des in z46 with 1 sub, 2 fig.

It’s possible to scramble 1 fig from z36. Would you like to do that?

There’s also the risk that you see a connection to z46 from z43. Would complicate things and possible that you might want to rearrange your J NCM.

[ArtofWar1947]

@trulpen

The map version I see is the out-of-date version we used in our previous game.

What other changes have been made in the new version of the map? When did the map change? When did you notice we were using an out-of-date map?

When I opened TripleA to start our current game, I did not get a message asking if I wanted to update the map.

I could revise my J-3 NCM by moving a CV+F+Tac to SZ 45 and adding a SS to SZ 56.

However, if I had the new map from the start, more than the J-3 NCM would need to be changed. My J-1 to J-3 opening was planned out based on what I learned using the old map. If I was aware of the map changes, I would, for example, have built a CV on J-2 and the minor IC on J-3 instead of vice versa.

Had I known the map had changed before we began our second game (or soon after starting it), I would have updated my map and rethought my Japanese opening.

Given that we are 2.5 rounds into the game, I think the fair solution is to use the old map we both can see and have used from the start.

The Italians have some weighty decisions to make, and I used most of my game time last evening and today distracted with the map issues. So, I probably won’t be able to I-3 until tomorrow or so.

[trulpen]

I’ve had this map all along, but it was first now during US that I noticed the fig couldn’t move properly by DNG.

I think the problem is that you started the game with an old map version.

I think I started our previous game with the latest map, but I have to look into it.

[ArtofWar1947]

@trulpen

I checked our previous game that you started, and it used the out-of-date map.

[trulpen]

Seems to be the case.

Anyway, if you want to adjust the purchases, it’s ok.

I prefer that we play with the latest map. Movement by DNG will then have to be player enforced.

Most important is that we see the same thing. Do you have the latest map installed now?

[ArtofWar1947]

@trulpen

The offer to change purchases is generous and I understand your preference to use the revised map.

I checked with Gamerman, and he indicated that “the map should never change on you during the game!”

I prefer to use the map with which we started the game for a couple of reasons. One is that I do not know what other changes there are in the revised map. Another is I have not installed the new map, because I have another ongoing PTV game based on the previous map.

[trulpen]

Then we sure have a problem, because I think we see the map differently. Updating the map would give the same effect in your other game, with new borders, but old rules.

I can’t install an older map, since it’s not available.

The last resort is to restart the game from scratch.

[ArtofWar1947]

@trulpen

I would have to check with my other opponent about updating my map and rethink the Japanese purchases and the J-3 NCM.

I also need to find out what other changes have been made in the map.

Restarting the game is a no-go. The last resort is arbitration by Gamerman.

[trulpen]

https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/topic/35323/ww2-path-to-victory-rules-discussion/190?page=8

• Carrier scrambles are now limited to a maximum of three planes from each sea zone adjoining the battle (player enforced);

• Convoy blockade zones have been added to sea zones 43 and 38; and

• Sea zone 46 (by Dutch New Guinea) has been redrawn to further differentiate the reach of the Malayan naval base from sea zone 38. The redrawn sea zone is shown below.

Strangely enough I did get convoyed from z38, which implies that the later map is in effect. Weird.

[ArtofWar1947]

@trulpen

Thanks for a list of the changes; this is helpful.

I do not understand the last comment. Were you conveyed from z38 in another PTV game with the previous map? For UK-3 in our game the only land areas adjacent to SZ 38 are Malaya and Sumatra, which are under Japanese control.

[ArtofWar1947]

@artofwar1947

The new rules (limiting CV scrambles, convoy blockage, and easier access to the Celebes) seem to disadvantage the Axis in the Pacific more than the Allies. If our present game was the first of set or we had used the new map/rules for our first game, I’d agree to the new rules and map and revise the Japanese buys and NCM.

As this is a rematch of a set, it seems only fair that the conditions (i.e., the bid and rules) be keep the same as our first game.

[trulpen]

I will look into it, but I think the game started with 5.1, but then in round 2 or 3 we changed it. Could be another game though.

I agree that premises should be the same between the two games. Can you please post a screenshot of the area so that I can see what you see? Then I can adjust properly.

[ArtofWar1947]

@trulpen

The change in rules/map must be another game. There was no discussion with me about such changes. For example, I was unaware to the end that Celebes were easily accessible by the Allies or that CV scrambles were limited to 3 per SZ.

I’ll try to figure out how to post a screen shot of the area.

[trulpen]

There’s usually some kind of Prt Scr-button on the keyboard. It works to just paste it in here with ctrl+v.

[trulpen]

@trulpen

[trulpen]

@artofwar1947 said in L21 #2 ArtofWar1947 (AX+12) vs. Trulpen (AL) PTV:

The change in rules/map must be another game. There was no discussion with me about such changes. For example, I was unaware to the end that Celebes were easily accessible by the Allies or that CV scrambles were limited to 3 per SZ.

Actually, it was in our game.

Check out page 2 and 3.

https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/topic/36630/l21-1-trulpen-x-12-vs-artofwar1947-a-p2v/26?page=2

Admittedly, you did not take part in the discussion, but I was under the impression that the 6.0-rules was in effect. If I remember correctly it was implemented in atleast one instance when J took back Java.

Unfortunately the game-file seems to be corrupt due to something with UK, so I can’t check it in the client’s history.

We seem to have a discrepancy at hand.

[ArtofWar1947]

@trulpen

After our Game #1 had started (after your G-3 turn), you adopted PTV Version 6 with a revised map and rules without my informed consent. On p. 2 of the posts of our previous game, you did ask if you should update to Version 6 or if it was too late.
https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/topic/36630/l21-1-trulpen-x-12-vs-artofwar1947-a-p2v/59?page=2
I notice the download of the map wasn’t succesful. I have it at v 5.1, while the latest seems to be 6.0. Should I try and update it, or is it too late?
Checking with the designers as well, @regularkid & @Adam514.

By the time I viewed the post to our Game #1, there was a long, long string of posts regarding the adoption of PTV Version 6 and the difficulties you were experiencing trying to do so. Admittedly, I did not have the time or interest to carefully read any of these posts (including your initial post discussed previously). My sense was that adopting PTV Version 6 was not worth the trouble. This conclusion seemed to be confirmed by your last two post on page 3 of our Game #1 record. Specifically, I read “Good I can skip it” as “Good, I do not have to adopt PTV Version 6.” The question regarding rule changes with 6.0 was not answered, and this further confirmed for me that there was no need to read through all the posts regarding an upgrade to PTV Version 6.
[https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/topic/36630/l21-1-trulpen-x-12-vs-artofwar1947-a-p2v/59?page=3
I think we can perhaps play it continuously with some extra edits. Wasn’t aware that the scramble-rule was player-enforced.
Have been working on the map, but it will take many hours. Good I can skip it. Thanks!]
[https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/topic/36630/l21-1-trulpen-x-12-vs-artofwar1947-a-p2v/59?page=3Or are there any crucial rule-changes with 6.0?*]

I played the rest of our Game #1 and the first three rounds of Game 2 with the assumption we were both using PTV Version 5. That is, I assumed the map and rules had not changed. In Game #1, I did not take advantage of the new map/rules. Specifically, I did realize the Allies had easy access to the Celebes (i.e., SZ 45 was only 2, not 3 spaces from SZ 55), that scrambles from CVs were limited to 3 per unit, or that SZ 38 and 43 could be blockaded. Did you not think it curious, for example, that I did not attack blocking Japanese DDs or attack Japanese-held islands more often when the U.S. had many more planes than the 3 defending fighters the Japanese could send to defend?
I am of the opinion that you should not have updated your game version after our Game #1 had been started with PTV Version 5. This certainly should not have been before I explicitly agreed to the change. In seeking a change in the game version, you should have clearly informed me what the implications would be (i.e., explicitly detailed what map and rule changes were involved). As it is, you made a unilateral decision that was not respectful or sporting (i.e., disadvantaged me in our Game #1 and left me underprepared in Game #2).
Given our match and rematch should be done under identical conditions (i.e., the same bid and map/rules) and your insistence that we use the PTV 6 map/rules in our Game #2, I propose the following remedy: (a) As you proposed, we adopt the PTV 6 map/rules in our Game #2 and the Japanese are allowed to adjust the J-2 and J-3 buys and the J-3 NCM. (b) As we assumed different maps/rules for our Game #1, we should replay Game #1 using PTV 6 map/rules.