Allies getting destroyed every game?

[waxenhen4]

not one 1940 global or Europe game (out of 4) has ended in an allied victory. every single time without fail by the time the us reaches Europe, whether its turn 3 or 5 or anything, Germany has taken Moscow and can stack 10 plus tanks in the west to repel ANY invasion the allies can think of. For example in my last global game I as the Americans did not spend 1 ICP in the pacific devoting my whole economy to Europe making transports, units, and warships. while japan still surprisingly did not even manage to win in the pacific, America was totally outclassed on landings in south France, facing 8 tanks on the landing, and 10+ after the fact as by then, turn 6, Russia was long gone. this stopped the largest initial American landing which no landing after could compete with, forcing a surrender for the allies.

the situation just seems so impossible for the allies given the fact that, Germany can out produce the Americans, half of the invasion force has to be infantry, and those all need tones of transports. Not to mention you’ll need to split your economy further if japan is competent.

so am i the unluckiest player alive or is their some secret trick to taking down Germany, I’d like to know

[Contango]

@waxenhen4

I think two things can be true at once, and there’s probably some combination of the below:

1. The OOB (out of box) game heavily favours the Axis, especially as a gaming group gains skill/experience
2. Your group’s Allied play is probably lacklustre

On the first point, there’s a consensus among skilled players that OOB favors the Axis. Sometimes it takes a while for a new gaming group to gain enough skill/experience that this starts to show up, and it’s not uncommon for the Allies to win >50% of games in a very inexperienced group.

Mind you, the progression to a high Axis win rate can happen very quickly because the Axis are much easier to script a potent opening for. This appears to be what’s happening in your games, as Germany seems to be using a scripted Moscow crush that your allied players haven’t developed an answer to yet.

Here are some items that are suggesting to me that inexperience is, at least, part of the problem:

• You’ve only played 4 games, and these were split between Global and Europe
• Japan wasn’t rampaging even though the US was ignoring it
• Moscow appears to be falling on turn 5/6 – I would consider this early, although turn 6 isn’t completely unreasonable, it should be a huge, all in, gamble for Germany

Some things that aren’t clear:

• Did you check the odds in the Moscow battles?
• Is Russia bringing all their forces back to Moscow, or leaving them haphazardly to die elsewhere?
• What is Russia purchasing?
• Is the UK sending support to Moscow via the middle east, especially fighters? (Persia factory?)
• Is the UK doing a proper Taranto Raid or 92 stack? Or something less effective?

So the real question is, how much of your problem is due to the Axis being favored and how much is due to inexperience. The solution to the first is house rules or a bid, the solution to the second is learning.

My best suggestion is to start by downloading TripleA and then view some top tier league games to see what better players are doing as the allies. Then you can mimic/implement some of what you’ve learned. Hopefully that will solve your problem. Sooner or later though, you’ll need a bid/house rule to help, so you could also consider implementing that now.

Unfortunately very few league players are doing OOB these days, so probably the next best option to learn from is BM3 (Balance Mod). It’s a house ruled variant, but at least it’s reasonably close to OOB, so the play is somewhat similar.

[MarshmallowofWar]

Here’s what you do:

1. Practice the mocking jig.
2. Take the Allies.
3. When the Axis when, do the mocking jig against your opponents and complain that they can’t win without a stacked deck.

Seriously though, out-of-box is tougher. The Allies opening moves are not “glorious” and game-shattering, and newer players tend to be impatient to make those big moves.

@Contango gave good advice. Work on basics, learn what works and what doesn’t, and review other games. There are some pretty basic Allied moves that span the first few turns that can really set you up for success. At the end of the day, the Allies are about two things – logistics and teamwork. Master those two things and even OOB the Allies have a decent shot against most players.

Most of all, have fun! Enjoy these early games where you’re still learning lot of new things and feel freedom to experiment!

Marsh

[Colt45554]

In 1940 Europe 2E The Allies are seriously misplaying if moscow rush goes flawlessly and Germany pushes US out of Norway/France/Italy simultaneously with a bunch of tanks

[Colt45554]

@Colt45554 I misread. What turn does Germany capture Moscow?

[AndrewAAGamer]

The Axis definitely have an advantage so a Bid is usually used to make the game more even. Outside of that as already mentioned gaining experience is a huge key to winning. Try this article for some useful information to improve your gaming skills.

https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/topic/35286/warfare-principles-of-axis-allies-by-andrewaagamer?page=1

[waxenhen4]

@Contango some questions and answers:
it does seem like the axis can pull off more consistent strategies then the allies, what are some more common, playtested house rules we could try beyond tournament scoring and bidding

i and my usual 1 opponent are around the same skill level and have roughly equal experience with both teams

only one out of the 4 games listed was Europe, along with that we’ve played a couple pacifics and 1941s

I’m typically a better japan then my opponent, he did take Hawaii and landed some troops in WUS which was probably a huge oversight on my part but i crushed it and japan was pretty much on the back foot from then on without further US involvement.

Yes i am pretty sure Moscow’s been falling turn 6-7 with little hope left by turn 5. Germany does go all in on Russia as i dont really get any ground forces in the mainland until America shows up.

the odds seem pretty slim in all Moscow battles with russia having around 18 infantry and around 4 planes, including British ones, and germany having around 16+ tanks and a good chunk of their airforce left plus whatever else they have left.

i like to play aggressively as Russia and don’t take too many unnecessary casualties, although i do only buy a few non infantry units a turn. how many powerful units should russia be buying?

yes last match a made a Persia factory and sent about 8 tanks and 8 mechanized to try and save/ take back Moscow but to no success. i also feels this takes away from what the British could be doing in France.

my uk plays have admittedly not been very successful, i send my Egypt fleet to india to try to make a group that can rival Japanese attacks so America doesn’t have to which admittedly doesn’t ever work out very well. where do you think Europe UK should be paying most attention? france? norway? italy? persia?

thanks.

[Colt45554]

Did you say russia has like 18 infantry in the Moscow defense battles? That’s way lower than it should. A common mistake is to defend novgorod. Don’t lose stacks like that. If Moscow will certainly be destroyed with great TUV-change it’s oftentimes better to evacuate.

If you’re averse to bidding and the Axis player is decent then you’re always gonna have a hell of a time trying to win as Allies in G402E. If he’s good at math or is using a battle calculator then it’s even worse. But E402E should be much closer to parity.

UK has to shut down Italy which leads to the natural progression egypt->Middle East-> battle for caucusus/NW Persia vs Germany. UK has a much more difficult/dicey time doing any of this without a bid. If UK shuts down Italy it has a little bit of extra money to help US in France/Norway in addition to the above.

[waxenhen4]

@Colt45554 well the combination with trying to keep counter attacking armies on the north and south flanks and having blitz blockers, there isn’t much left to spare and to spend time bringing back to Moscow. in the 2 turns Russia has left when all other armies are gone and its just down to Moscow, 18 infantry is about all russia can do.

[wizmark]

@waxenhen4 As Russia you have to accept that you fall back to Moscow with all starting forces and new builds. Holding Bryansk for even 1 or 2 turns to hold the germans from attacking the caucasus and stalingrad can be achieved as can very limited counterattacks using 1-2 inf and the russian air.

But by turn 5/6 you can have roughly 40/50 infantry, 10/20 art (depending on your ratios of building) 3/4 mechs the 2 tanks and the 3 air sitting in Moscow. Beating this stack down should take the German army an extra 3 or so turns of dedicated builds…if by this time the UK has built a factory in persia to shuttle air up then this period of grace can be extended.

If at any time you feel the germans have enough to win in Moscow then evacuate and head towards the caucasus or NW Persia.
The Axis need 8 VCs to win which mean they have to have Cairo or London…Shifting the whole Russian army south and reinforcing with the UK Middle East forces can be a huge roadblock for the axis to overcome.

By this point hopefully the US are knocking on the doors of W Europe and starting to take territories away from Germany.

Try not to let Germany hit isolated stacks of 4/5 inf/art…with their huge air superiority they can destroy these easily and Russia cannot afford to lose any troops from the Moscow defence.

Against a competent player Russia just cant afford to be aggressive in a vanilla OOB game.

[waxenhen4]

@wizmark yeah im starting to see how much more effective playing russia defensively can be. is there really no value in attacking large german armies head on even if it only sets them back a turn or so at the cost of many units?

[Contango]

@waxenhen4

It sounds like there are a few issues with the Allied play, let’s try to work through some of them:

Russia:
You mentioned that Germany is doing an all-in on Russia. As soon as you see the German 1st turn purchase being Russia focused, your role as the Russian player now needs to be 1 dimensional. You’re the rationing survivalist and every decision needs to be focused on collecting an income for as long as you can, and making Moscow as costly for Germany as possible. (of course you can take advantage of mistakes if they come up, but otherwise It’s unify and back up)

• 18 infantry in the Moscow battle is a failure for Russia, you should be targeting 80+.
• I would avoid buying high tier units if at all possible. Some artillery are acceptable and maybe mechanized infantry selectively. 100% infantry is boring, but worth trying.
• Abandon trying to hold both north and south flanks, you shouldn’t even to be able to hold one flank if Germany is going all in on Moscow properly. Priority #1 is a safe path to Moscow for every unit.
• Abandon playing aggressively as Russia. Sure it’s fun, but it’s a recipe for a loss. A good player will pick it apart and shouldn’t leave you a lucrative attack opening anyway.
• Your blitz blockers are probably waste… if the territory is important enough, Italy will can-open for Germany anyway. If you’re leaving enough units to stop a can-opener, well then you’re just leaving “free” one-round units for Germany to gobble up. Any incremental unit making it to Moscow will probably roll 3 times, and likely result in an extra tank or plane death for Germany. Use blockers very sparingly.

I just pulled an example from a league game of Wheatbeer (X) vs JDOW (A) after the Russian 3rd turn. (getting lots of TripleA errors so might be in an older version)

Note how many units Russia has in Bryansk on turn 3. The 2 units in Novgorod were used to re-take it to deny German building units there, but otherwise there’s zero waste.

UK:
The UK’s focus is harder to narrow down. The UK is about finding the best thing you can do for the least investment.

I’d say more generally your goal should be to take whatever low hanging fruit you can get and otherwise try to get good value and create headaches. Try to force Germany to have to allocate resources to you.

As for openers, this is already long so I wont give details, but you should probably try:

• The Taranto raid
• Stacking SZ92 with a Gibraltar airbase

Some good UK ideas:

• Egypt and/or Persia Factories
• Fighters for Moscow are great, but fighters on Atlantic side are also helpful, they can defend fleet from the UK, defend fleet from Gibraltar (with an airbase) and generally be prepared to support a US landing, also nuke any naval units Italy tries to accumulate in the Mediterranean
• Some fleet can be helpful to take the defensive burden away from the US, but don’t overdo it
• Some transports are great -> force him to defend Rome, force him to hold back units for Norway that could go to Moscow, support a US landing, trade coastal territories rather than trying to “stick” a permanent landing

Here’s another example from the game I mentioned earlier. This is after UK’s turn 4 and followed up a SZ92 stack. Note the US/UK have already got a defensible landing including 3 UK fighters with minimal investment from the US. Also note that the UK is using US transports to further reinforce on the next round. Perhaps the French will also. (This is BM3, so I believe the UK may have some extra cash, but you get the general idea)

[waxenhen4]

@Contango thanks for the pictures

So is the most optimal counter for an all in Russia attack really abandoning EVERY thing except Moscow? I suppose this would deny the VC but give Germany almost all of Russia’s ipc value for free.

the UK advice seems pretty strong but what do you think makes a better permanent main landing for the allies: Normandy, north/south Italy, or south France? (assume your not playing a mod that appears to have made southern France neutral)

[Colt45554]

@waxenhen4 whatever is weakest. Usually Norway is hardest for Germany to defend and is worth 8 to him

[Contango]

@waxenhen4 said in Allies getting destroyed every game?:

@Contango thanks for the pictures

So is the most optimal counter for an all in Russia attack really abandoning EVERY thing except Moscow? I suppose this would deny the VC but give Germany almost all of Russia’s ipc value for free.

the UK advice seems pretty strong but what do you think makes a better permanent main landing for the allies: Normandy, north/south Italy, or south France? (assume your not playing a mod that appears to have made southern France neutral)

For Russia it might be a bit strong to say to abandon absolutely everything. I think you can justify deviating from a full on retreat under certain circumstances:

1. You can make a case that your deviation stands a good chance of actually helping your Moscow odds.

Examples:

• Trading units to re-take Novgorod, Ukraine and Volgograd -> not only kills German units but also denies factory usage
• Sending some mechanized units to kill small groups of German tanks/mechs trying to do a Northern run-by to gobble up income
• If Germany moves ahead too quickly, or splits up and leaves you an opportunity to strafe his army and still be safe afterwards, (a strafe is where you make an attack with intentions of retreating on purpose) or otherwise leaves you a lucrative unit trade

2. Germany has allocated resources away from Russia, so Russia can now flip to offense.

Examples:

• German production switches heavily to the Atlantic
• Germany decides to do a mid-game Sea Lion
• Germany goes hard with mechanized units into the middle east leaving you outnumbering his slower army

As for my thoughts on an Allied permanent landing:

Normandy is probably the best:

• Free factory
• Opportunity for UK ground troops to use US transports easily
• UK Air cover (watch the Italians taking out your airbase before Germany’s turn)
• UK production of extra naval units if things get lively and it’s necessary
• Furthest from Moscow, meaning German planes have to pick one or the other
• German infantry/artillery have to move off of defending West Germany to get there
• Can quickly switch to the Med if you see opportunity
• Threat of sniping Berlin (US takes Denmark, UK follows up with transports to Berlin)

I find Norway is good, but kind of situational. You can sometimes really annoy Germany with a small investment of suicided transports and not taking your entire fleet out of position and away from air cover.