This topic has been moved to Axis & Allies 1942 Edition.
New Release Date - November 18?
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You guys just crack me up!
Talk about whining. I have never heard so much whining about something so little as a 3 week delay in the introduction of a GAME, as I have heard here!
For goodness sake lighten up!
Look about you in this world today and see what’s really going on, and then don’t whine about a trivial game. We are lucky to be alive and to be grateful for what we have, much less whining about this.
This site appears to be one big whinefest.
I mean we haven’t even played the game and there are whiners here about how broken it is!
I am a casual AA player and am not into the dead zone strategy and trading territories and the JTDTM and KJF or KGF of you self styled professionals and thank goodness.
I played AA Pacific the other day with my two sons and we had a great time. No whining about how the game may or may not favor Japan, Japan did win BTW, we just enjoyed playing the game. The USA built 8 battleships. Why, I don’t know but one of the reasons was becz I could and those 8 battleships looked good out there. Probably not the best strategy and certainly not one I’ve seen or read about here as “The” strategy but I tell you it was fun!
I’ve played AA Europe with my gaming group and AA Revised too and thank goodness we just sit and play. There is no choreography or predestination of how the game plays and ends. It is always new and fresh, I guess becz we are not experts or as professional as you all are.
You all sound so jaded about AA. Sometime watch some “amateurs” play and you’ll probably be amazed at all the “mistakes” they make, but you will be amazed how “true” the game is and not so artificially altered so that the JTDTM or KGF options must be played to demonstrate superiority.
I guess if all you got together for a game, from all the cauterwalling here I would expect it to proceed in a very scripted manner by everyone proceeding with their country’s scripted/expected response.
Thank goodness we have not reached that state of petrification.
It would take all the pleasure of playing AA and seeing always a different game before us emerge each time.
I have no beef with any of you. I enjoy reading about AA and your ideas and “listening” to all the ideas about playing, but what has struck me is that it seems this intensity has lessened the simple pleasure of just sitting down and playing it.
I hope no one takes this as an insult, “no harm, no foul” as I would say, but as a casual player I just wanted to point this out to this community as a whole.
I am certainly looking forward to AA50. It will be grand in scope: the size of the board and all the pieces and the addition of Italy and just having that set up on the table in the basement is going to be great!
Avalon Hill WOTC whatever you want to call them, is producing a great fun filled game that will divert us all for hours. I for one applaud them and I am looking forward to those Saturdays and Sundays gathering with friends to play this monster!
It will certainly be fun and that’s the bottom line isn’t it?
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I disagree with cousinjoe. With BGG setup, a KGF is not possible if Japan don’t want. Japan can reach 60 IPCS easily, probably 70, with so much bonuses and China’s sparring status. A ignored Japan, If they want, can invade american mainland. With so many economic advantage over USA, Japan can beat americans easily, in special if Japan gets improved industry tech (building 4 guys at Alaska and 10 at Japan … game over for USA). With the added distance with soviets, in fact is easier aim America than Moscow. And there is a VC at Ottawa, go figure. USA need a Pacific fleet or they will be toast. Without USA’s aid, UK and soviets will have soon less income that germans and italians.
Thar I fear is bidding for allies. Seems UK needs units at India and China needs also at least 3 or 4 more units.
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Some more thoughts:
2. Cheaper ICs (15–>12IPC)
-would encourage UK ICs in Aus/India again more likely to give global playout (and less likely for UK KGF)
Incorrect. That will prevent IC at India is not price. It’s not only UK’s crappy initial forces at India and playing after Japan, those two would be enough bad. That kills any indian IC is China’s sparring status. A no brainer move for Japan 1 is destroy all chinese forces. All. They can even take Philippines and still kill all chineses. I means 1 built chinese round 1, zero built chineses round 2. Without chineses, Japan can focus on India. With India conquered (round 4 as much), USA’s Pacific fleet cannot beat a 55-60 ipcs japanese navy, and with USA’s fleet beaten (or going to Atlantic), USA can be invaded. The idea is that BGG must be a false setup or will soon be modded, it’s too good for Japan
3. Interceptors as either standard or Tech
-Let defending FTRs in SBR territories get a single 1@1 shot each to shoot down Rockets or SBR BMBRs
-if Germany gets multiple ICs at game start (which they should), I’d say make it standard, otherwise make it at least a Tech to give Germany some chance of countering a cheap SBR+/-HB strategy
Interceptors are good
4. Make Techs Directed
-Random Techs are for kids. There should be no place for Random Techs in a game of Grand Strategy. Make players outsmart their opponents, not outluck them.
In fact, this is a good system, you don’t spent ipcs for nothing, and the techs are not uber powerful. Improved industry and radar counter HB. And allied strat bomb campaigns are prevented by Godzilla Japan’s assault on America. A grand strategy player must take luck in count
5. Give SUBs some added survivability
-they are still too weak. Presence of a single DD basically makes them autokilled. Either let them at least dive after 1 round of combat regardless of DD presence, or make DD’s have to roll a profiency roll to detect them in the first place
-added SUB survivability will go a long way to encourageing a naval campaign. Right now, they’re still pretty useless… even at 6IPC.
I fear more dds. At 8 ipcs, a 2/2 that defend against airfleet is a no brainer. Maybe a too good unit
I think just these 5 simple changes will make this game more like the Global Playout Grand Strategy game it should be, rather than the old KGF and JTDTM we have seen too many times before :-(
I’d say change the BGG setup (has serious flaws at Pacific), make tech not optional, introduce interceptors and make China a non-sparring country
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I agree, i mean i understand all the kkgf and the ideas from all of the people here. But i must say that im not a newb and when i play agasint my game group who dont have the game, i kill them 75% of the time. But when they beat me, this is so good lol. I just try to give them some minor advantage. I put my self in a minor country or in revised i give them national advantages and this works.
So the point of this is……i wont clap for WOTC cause…I WANT MY GAME for the 23 OCTOBER. Thats all, AA50 will be a masterpiece and i know it. I dont listen to people who are negatif about it. Im just so angry that the date change and we dont know WHY. Just tell me why and give me a good damn reason about it. I just sold my opld revised game in prediction of having AA50 in about 2 weeks so…ARRGGG :x :mrgreen:
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I disagree with cousinjoe. With BGG setup, a KGF is not possible if Japan don’t want.
Funcioneta,
Have you ever played games by e-mail? With all due respect, give me Allies and I will absolutely DESTROY you with a KGF!
With no Allied AC in Asia, and a very low return for US to stay in the Pacific, the Allies best bet in this game is to triple team Germany and ignore Japan. The game essentially becomes a race of whether the Allies can take down Germany faster than Japan can take down Russia, and believe me, this is not even close.
True, we have not seen the actual setup, but it would need to be extremely favourable for the Allies to keep them in Asia and the Pacific, minimum 1 IC and a strong US Navy (all info so far would indicate this is not the case). With that said, I am fine playing with the BGG setup. I’d prefer no tech (which actually helps Axis) as the tech system as it stands right now is for kids, and not serious gamers.
So how about it Funcioneta…
Sure, you can talk the talk, but can you walk the walk? :-D -
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What about if Hawaii is worth 10 ipc, and Australia also 10 ipc? Then perhaps we see some US navy in the pacific, and Japan maybe think twice before chosing the JTDTM?
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NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! They better be addign some real good stuff or i go bam bam! you dead
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I have on very good authority, that the delay was to include a new naval unit.
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@Imperious:
why? Perhaps they will include something more? or a surprise?
I wish this was the case.
You know… If I was Avalon Hill, and had the wherewithall to release another version of A&A so soon after Revised (2004), I would want to make sure it was not just a simple upgrade, but rather something that just totally blew the socks off of anything before it!!!So far, I’m not getting that. Meh, you got Italy and China as playable in the game. Meh, you got a new Cruiser unit. Meh, you’ve thrown in some National Objectives. You know, a lot of these are nice, but where is the Grand Strategy?!? Where is the World at War?!? Where is the game of Global Warfare?!?
This is how I see the game playing out…
Subs are still too vulnerable and do no convoy damage, so Germany will forego navy and just attack Russia
Russia as always, will fight Germany
Japan will seek to expand and India is the most ideal target
UK will see India as undefendable (ICs are so expensive), and will build up in SZ 6 to hem any German sea units in and trade Norway and NW Europe
Now that KGF is on, Italy will try and do it’s best to expand in Africa while helping vs. Russia
US, to support KGF most quickly, will ignore Japan, and buy BMBRs and bomb Germany and Italy into the stone age (-20 and -12 IPC/ROUND). Tranports and troops will eventually follow
on following rounds, Japan seeing they are ignored will seek to expand quickly while rushing to put some back pressure on MoscowBasically, the game is KGF with JTDTM playout all over again and nothing is fixed. We’re back to the playout we had in Revised and Classic. This game as is still has some serious flaws, and I honestly hope that the delayed release is an effort to fix things. The board and the molds are fine, but they should certainly be able to make some last minute changes to the manual to save this game and give us the proper global playout and increased strategy we deserve.
Last minute changes I would love to see…
1. Some Convoy Raid Rules - ideally, the more subs, the more damage, but even something as simple as this would be nice…
National Objectives:
Germany: At least 2 SUBs in North Atlantic (SZs 1,2,3,6,7,8,9,10,11,12) = 5IPC
Germany: At least 4 SUBs in North Atlantic (SZs 1,2,3,6,7,8,9,10,11,12) = 10IPCJapan: At least 2 SUBs off US W coast (SZs 44,53,54,55,56,57,65) = 5IPC
Japan: At least 4 SUBs off US W coast (SZs 44,53,54,55,56,57,65) = 10IPCUSA: At least 2 SUBS off Japan coast (SZs 58,59,60,61,62,63) = 5IPC
USA: At least 4 SUBs off Japan coast (SZs 58,59,60,61,62,63) = 10IPCThis would at least encourage the possibility of a German naval campaign as well as Japanese and American Pacific campaigns
2. Cheaper ICs (15–>12IPC)
-would encourage UK ICs in Aus/India again more likely to give global playout (and less likely for UK KGF)3. Interceptors as either standard or Tech
-Let defending FTRs in SBR territories get a single 1@1 shot each to shoot down Rockets or SBR BMBRs
-if Germany gets multiple ICs at game start (which they should), I’d say make it standard, otherwise make it at least a Tech to give Germany some chance of countering a cheap SBR+/-HB strategy4. Make Techs Directed
-Random Techs are for kids. There should be no place for Random Techs in a game of Grand Strategy. Make players outsmart their opponents, not outluck them.5. Give SUBs some added survivability
-they are still too weak. Presence of a single DD basically makes them autokilled. Either let them at least dive after 1 round of combat regardless of DD presence, or make DD’s have to roll a profiency roll to detect them in the first place
-added SUB survivability will go a long way to encourageing a naval campaign. Right now, they’re still pretty useless… even at 6IPC.I think just these 5 simple changes will make this game more like the Global Playout Grand Strategy game it should be, rather than the old KGF and JTDTM we have seen too many times before :-(
Good post.
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I disagree with cousinjoe. With BGG setup, a KGF is not possible if Japan don’t want.
Funcioneta,
Have you ever played games by e-mail? With all due respect, give me Allies and I will absolutely DESTROY you with a KGF!
I played tons of games by e-mail :-) I think my score in league this year is 9-4, 10 with allies (all of them KJF, score 8 wins, 2 loses if I’m not wrong). In fact, I’m worst at face to face, there is less time to think.
In Revised, I’ll simply don’t let you make a KGF. I have discovered a counter for KGF in Revised a couple of weeks ago. It’s new, and I have to polish still, so probably you would have a 50/50 chance.
In Anniversary, with BGG setup, with this counter, I think there is about no chance for allies if they try KGF. I think there is not much chance for allies even playing a traditional axis strat against KGF. Japan is simply too powerful in a KGF strat, playing Japan traditional or innovative. I think the only slim chance allies have of win is building fleet at California
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True, we have not seen the actual setup, but it would need to be extremely favourable for the Allies to keep them in Asia and the Pacific, minimum 1 IC and a strong US Navy (all info so far would indicate this is not the case). With that said, I am fine playing with the BGG setup. I’d prefer no tech (which actually helps Axis) as the tech system as it stands right now is for kids, and not serious gamers.
So how about it Funcioneta…
Sure, you can talk the talk, but can you walk the walk? :-DWait a second… are you saying that you want a game with BGG “setup”? I have few time for more games and it would be a slow pace game, but it will be interesting. Me playing Axis and you Allies is that you want? No techs, you don’t want them and they are not mandatory (I cannot force you, but I think we are losing a interesting feature). No bids (testing game). AABattlemap and forum dices.
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To Funcioneta- No offense, but I don’t think your gaming experiences are representative of the norm. Japan rarely has any control over which strategy the Allies adopt, and certainly nothing that can halt a concerted KGF strat. If you’re seeing more KJF games than KGF, I suspect that you’re just not playing against very skilled opponents. Either that, or they’re just so bored of ‘business as usual’, that they are intentionally adopting the weaker strat just for the change of pace.
To Constantinople- Everyone here understands and appreciates that the game is a lot of fun to play with newbies, and people who have not yet learned how to break the set up. That’s not a problem as far as I’m concerned, because the game will always be essentially the same/entertaining for the uninitiated. The problem is with those of us who have played this game to death, worked through all the major strategies, and understand how the underlying mechanics work. Among that crowd, once you’ve been shown how to exploit the set up, you will understand why KGF turns the game on its head. The reason why we get frustrated is because the same basic problems have been with this game since Classic: and, everytime a new version comes out, we make the same sort of recommendations, only to be ignored again. There are core issues with the Classic and Revised games that are not being addressed in AA50. At least not according to the information we have right now. Its a bummer for people who have remained loyal fans of the game for all these years, because the issues have been discussed at length by different people from different groups, and given enough time they all end up arriving at the same conclusion: basically that the game does not do enough to encourage a fight in the Pacific.
As a casual player, you might not have seen before just how busted the Revised game can be using the Out of Box rules, but, once you’ve seen the optimal openings, its hard forget them. It might not be an issue in your players group, but for many of us, this horse has been beat to death a hundred times over already. Something major needs to be done (either with the unit set up, or the IPC distribution, or the rules for Victory/Capitals) and its not clear at this point whether the AA50 game is going to deliver. Joe’s views are fairly typical for those of us who went through this process when Revised was first released. If we seem skeptical now its just because many of the issues we raised then still have not been taken care of.
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To Funcioneta- No offense, but I don’t think your gaming experiences are representative of the norm. Japan rarely has any control over which strategy the Allies adopt, and certainly nothing that can halt a concerted KGF strat. If you’re seeing more KJF games than KGF, I suspect that you’re just not playing against very skilled opponents. Either that, or they’re just so bored of ‘business as usual’, that they are intentionally adopting the weaker strat just for the change of pace.
I think you should re-read his posts and try again.
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I disagree with cousinjoe. With BGG setup, a KGF is not possible if Japan don’t want.
Funcioneta,
Have you ever played games by e-mail? With all due respect, give me Allies and I will absolutely DESTROY you with a KGF!
I played tons of games by e-mail :-) I think my score in league this year is 9-4, 10 with allies (all of them KJF, score 8 wins, 2 loses if I’m not wrong). In fact, I’m worst at face to face, there is less time to think.
In Revised, I’ll simply don’t let you make a KGF. I have discovered a counter for KGF in Revised a couple of weeks ago. It’s new, and I have to polish still, so probably you would have a 50/50 chance.
In Anniversary, with BGG setup, with this counter, I think there is about no chance for allies if they try KGF. I think there is not much chance for allies even playing a traditional axis strat against KGF. Japan is simply too powerful in a KGF strat, playing Japan traditional or innovative. I think the only slim chance allies have of win is building fleet at California
So what’s this strategy? If you don’t want it public before playing CJ, can you just PM it to me? I’m curious.
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I think you should re-read his posts and try again.
:|
I read it the first time man.
I don’t usually spend 15 minutes typing a response to a post without first considering what it says.I think there is not much chance for allies even playing a traditional axis strat against KGF. Japan is simply too powerful in a KGF strat, playing Japan traditional or innovative. I think the only slim chance allies have of win is building fleet at California
You are playing a rather different game than the rest of us, if you think that the only chance the Allies have of winning the game is to build a fleet at California. Sorry, it just makes it hard for me to follow the rest of what you’re saying when I hear suggestions like that.
I think my score in league this year is 9-4, 10 with allies (all of them KJF, score 8 wins, 2 loses if I’m not wrong). In fact, I’m worst at face to face, there is less time to think.
In Revised, I’ll simply don’t let you make a KGF. I have discovered a counter for KGF in Revised a couple of weeks ago.
The point I tried to make is that it is always up to the Allies to determine which kind of game is played (KGF/KJF). There is simply nothing you can do to change this as the Axis player. I find it hard to believe that Funcioneta, or anyone else for that matter, has hit upon on a Japanese strategy in the last two weeks, that has somehow eluded the rest of us for the past 4 years now.
So what’s this strategy? If you don’t want it public before playing CJ, can you just PM it to me? I’m curious
The strategy Joe refers to is common knowledge. We all call it the “KGF” game for general reference, because there are a number of different variations on the same basic concept. All of them involve ignoring Japan (within reason), and concentrating all attention on Moscow/Berlin. Its the easiest way to win as the Allies, and impossible to counter as the Axis without either considerable luck in the first round, or a pre-placement bid. That’s why almost everyone gives the Axis player at least 8 ipcs to make things fair.
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Well, most of your post was talking about how he must not be playing good players because he’s playing vs. KJFs, which has nothing to do with anything he ever said at all. He said that he, as Allies, plays KJFs and wins, that’s it. Also, he never said Japan controls the Allies’ strategy, or that the KGF counter is even mainly dependent on Japan, or that the KGF counter forces the Allies to go KJF.
As for your point in this post about him suddenly discovering a KGF-counter, yeah, I am both curious about what he might have found and aware that the chances of him making some miraculous discovery like that aren’t great. /shrug
And yes, I know I come off blunt and sarcastic, don’t take it personally.
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AA50 will be a masterpiece and i know it. I dont listen to people who are negatif about it.
I agree with this. Its a new evolution The new prices and rules will work. leave out the technology until you play it a bunch of times.
The new ideas are more historical and have finally foreseen and removed some of the glitches that made you scratch your head.
Only thing is they missed the battle of atlantic dynamic, subs should take off UK’s income or return convoy boxes. I already made them anyway.
The other huge thing is the map is finally a correct size and the noob team can play Italy. I which they had some fog of war so they can eliminate the bean counter types who have to calculate everything. I was hoping marshaling cards would be used as fog of war tokens to hide your forces.
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The strategy Joe refers to is common knowledge. We all call it the “KGF” game for general reference, because there are a number of different variations on the same basic concept. All of them involve ignoring Japan (within reason), and concentrating all attention on Moscow/Berlin. Its the easiest way to win as the Allies, and impossible to counter as the Axis without either considerable luck in the first round, or a pre-placement bid. That’s why almost everyone gives the Axis player at least 8 ipcs to make things fair.
You misunderstood my post, I was asking that guy what his “counter” to KGF is, not what KGF is :-P
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I think there is not much chance for allies even playing a traditional axis strat against KGF. Japan is simply too powerful in a KGF strat, playing Japan traditional or innovative. I think the only slim chance allies have of win is building fleet at California
You are playing a rather different game than the rest of us, if you think that the only chance the Allies have of winning the game is to build a fleet at California. Sorry, it just makes it hard for me to follow the rest of what you’re saying when I hear suggestions like that.
You and your edits. :P
You know he’s talking about AA50 here, right? Not saying he’s right or wrong, just trying to clarify.
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