Strategic bombing in AA50

[Quark]

Hi all. Long time lurker awakens.

In the tech discussion thread about HB it seems that they are overpowered.

That’s true if HB is 2 D6 worth of IPC damage resulting in 6 damage points on the IC in the extreme case. That discussion made me wonder if we knew everything about strategic bombing in AA50 there is to know.

I don’t think that we should assume that strategic bombing works the old way anymore. I have no source but it makes much more sense to me if the bomber has to roll for a hit – in line with the mechanics of the rest of the game. A roll of 1-4 the IC looses 1 production capacity, 5-6 the bomber misses. In that case the average cost of a bombing raid in IPC terms is 4/3 IPC.

Not much when you likely to lose 2 IPC per raid to AA fire. The real benefit of a strategic bombing campaign in this situation is the disruption of the enemy production.

Bombing in this manner can be an interesting strategy. Consider a western allied bombing strategy. In the start it allows the US to get quickly into the action against Germany. With a sustained effort from the US an UK, Germany may have trouble fielding as many units as she wishes. Forcing her to cut down on infantry and putting more expensive units in the line while keeping up with IC repairs or building a new IC - choosing between a low IPC area and a location far away from the action in Western Europe. Italy would be easier to hurt this way I might add.

Strategic bombing is also a viable strategy against that far away IC in India or French-Indo China. You can shut that IC down, but it will probably cost you. Fairly balanced in my opinion.

If you consider the techs radar and HB cancel each other out.

Cheers

Quark

[Krieghund]

Welcome to the party, Quark!

Your theory is interesting, but it would make bombing campaigns quite expensive.  On average, each bomber would inflict only 3 or 4 damage points before being shot down.  That would cost you 12 IPCs for every 4 it cost the enemy.  In addition, the majority of the risk falls on the bombers.  If they get lucky and avoid AA, they can still miss.  If the defender gets lucky, the bombers’ already low rate of return becomes even worse.  The Allies would need to have a lot more income than the Axis in order for this to be a viable strategy.

At any rate, other than the way the damage inflicted by the SBRs is handled, they work the same way in Anniversary as they do in Revised.

[Corbeau Blanc]

Got a good tech for you guys to prevent bombing damage, even from nuclear devices:

• Good quality white paint

See for yourselves:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-t_5wthG0Wc

[Quark]

Okay then.

At least I got some more info on game mechanics. Turns out i misunderstood the cost per IC point thing. I was sure it cost 2 IPC per point. Could be nice to tweak the mechanics to avoid the single HB to flatten a IC. I think 1 possible hit pr. bomber and 2 for the HB at a cost of 3 IPC per IC point with simultaneous AA fire and bombing seems fair.

Just my 2 IPC

Cheers

[Krieghund]

That’s part of the beauty of this new system.  You can tweak both how the ICs are damaged and how they’re repaired to make finer adjustments if you think you need to.

[Guest]

@Krieghund:

That’s part of the beauty of this new system.  You can tweak both how the ICs are damaged and how they’re repaired to make finer adjustments if you think you need to.

One possible tweak is to put in a tech for improved air raid protection.  There are some fairly simple steps that you can take, and were taken in WW2 by both the UK and the Axis to reduce the effects of air attacks on industrial buildings and oil refineries.  Erecting blast walls of loose concrete blocks or sandbags, combined with careful cleaning of the building to reduce oil on the floor and flamable materials could reduce damage by up to one-half.  Blast walls combined with plenty of spare piping for cross-connections was quite effective at keeping refineries running.  The US Strategic Bombing Survey supplies quite a bit of information on that in its various discussions of German Air Raid Protection.

Attackers rolls his two dice, defender divides by two, and takes damage.

[Imperious Leader]

Lets stay on topic. Its turning into house rules as usual.

Its about the ACTUAL SBR rules in AA50 rather than what you are gonna change once you get the game. :x

[shermantank]

I personally like the new rule for SBR. It may not initially affect the places bombed, but if left uncared for, that can really hurt by reducing IC potential production.

[axis_roll]

@shermantank:

I personally like the new rule for SBR. It may not initially affect the places bombed, but if left uncared for, that can really hurt by reducing IC potential production.

RE: SBR (without any modification via techs)

It is an interesting change, and it is more powerful now… it’s just takes a while for it’s affect to really be felt.  But once it gets going, it’s basically the same as the old system.

With bombers only 12, that makes it’s cheaper, an hence, easier to implement.

Which side can implement it easier?  Looking at IPC levels, the allied dollars can easily be spent on air power (especially USA).  Gets them into the game quicker…like the real war.

Sharpen up that AAA rolling ability.

[Bardoly]

@axis_roll:

@shermantank:

I personally like the new rule for SBR. It may not initially affect the places bombed, but if left uncared for, that can really hurt by reducing IC potential production.

RE: SBR (without any modification via techs)

It is an interesting change, and it is more powerful now… it’s just takes a while for it’s affect to really be felt.  But once it gets going, it’s basically the same as the old system.

With bombers only 12, that makes it’s cheaper, an hence, easier to implement.

Which side can implement it easier?   Looking at IPC levels, the allied dollars can easily be spent on air power (especially USA).  Gets them into the game quicker…like the real war.

Sharpen up that AAA rolling ability.

How can you say that the new SBR rules are more powerful?  It seems to me that now you can only SBR/Rocket Germany for a maximum of 10 Hit points per round!  If you do more damage it is just lost, right?  And then if Germany only wishes to produce 5 units, then he pays 5 to repair 5 hit points, and then the next round, you can only inflict a maximum SBR/Rocket damage of 5.  Am I reading this rule correctly?  Or, do the IC’s have unlimited Hit Points, so you can SBR/Rocket them for 60, which means that Germany couldn’t build anything at all, because all of his IPC’s couldn’t even repair his IC.  Can the IC go into negative hit points?

It seems to me that this new rule has actually weakened SBR/Rocket attacks a lot, but at least Heavy Bombers will still be powerful in normal fighting.

[Funcioneta]

Sure bombing on ICs with value of 6 or more is not so powerful as seems. But bombing a IC with less than 6 value can be too powerful. Too. In Revised, you could bomb, say, FIC IC and the max damage was 3, even with HB. Now is 6  :-o. With new aa guns value of 6 and new bomber value of 12, ICs at those places can be bombed utterly, and it’s worst. You MUST rebuild the IC, or you can’t use the IC properly. Example: Japan bombs India and get a 6. You must pay the 6 ipcs or Japan can conquer your IC (you need 3 guys each turn to survive). In Germany, you can get a bomb of 6 and still rebuild 4 ipcs and buy 8 guys.

You don’t need HB to toast small ICs, but you need radar to defend small ICs. Better if tech is mandatory. They surely put aa guns at 6 ipcs thinking on radar stuff

[Bardoly]

So Funcioneta, are you saying that the IC’s hit points are equal to double that of the IC number on the territory?  If that is correct, then doesn’t that mean that if Japan SBRs an Indian IC (which would be 6 hit points if this is correct) but they only do 4 oints of damage, then the UK can still produce 2 units, and at the cost of only 1 IPC, they may build the full total of 3.  Or are you saying that the IC can be bombed into negative hit points?  I’m still not clear on this.
Thank you.

[Krieghund]

The maximum number of damage points an IC can sustain is twice the IPC value of the territory it’s in.  The number of damage points inflicted on the IC is subtracted from its production capacity.

If an IC in India is bombed for 4 points of damage, the owner must repair 2 of the damage points in order to produce one unit there.  The owner must repair all four points for full production.

[Bardoly]

Thank you Krieghund for your answer.  The Fact Sheet was very unclear about this.
With this, I have to agree with Funcioneta that this can be quite detrimental to the smaller ICs, but at least Germany can never be SBR’d in 1 round for all of its $ now.

[Guest]

@Bardoly:

Thank you Krieghund for your answer.  The Fact Sheet was very unclear about this.
With this, I have to agree with Funcioneta that this can be quite detrimental to the smaller ICs, but at least Germany can never be SBR’d in 1 round for all of its $ now.

Couldn’t in LHTR either.

In LHTR, in order to do 20 damage to Germany, USA and UK would each have to dedicated 10 IPC worth of bomber damage.  In this game, USA or UK needs to dedicate that much.  Big difference.  USA sitting back shipping bombers off while UK invades Northwestern Europe should be a viable strategy.  We’ll see.

[Bardoly]

@Rakeman:

@Bardoly:

Thank you Krieghund for your answer.  The Fact Sheet was very unclear about this.
With this, I have to agree with Funcioneta that this can be quite detrimental to the smaller ICs, but at least Germany can never be SBR’d in 1 round for all of its $ now.

Couldn’t in LHTR either.

In LHTR, in order to do 20 damage to Germany, USA and UK would each have to dedicated 10 IPC worth of bomber damage.  In this game, USA or UK needs to dedicate that much.  Big difference.  USA sitting back shipping bombers off while UK invades Northwestern Europe should be a viable strategy.  We’ll see.

Yes, but LHTR was the fix which castrated SBR/Rockets.  This rule change seems to have struck a balance between having a strictly SBR capaign to eliminate all of a country’s cash (usually Germany, but occasionally Rusia, and rarely England) which is a little boring, and the opposing view in which just about the only time someone SBRs is when their bomber has nothing else to do.  I mean how often does Germany need to produce 10 units in 1 turn?  Almost never, unless it it the end of the game for them.  Usually 6-7 is okay, which means that if they repair 15 (less than 6-7 because the cost of repairs means that you can’t build as much) so as to produce 5 units, then the next turns SBR can’t do more than 15 points of damage.

Yes, but LHTR was the fix which castrated SBR/Rockets.  This rule change seems to have struck a balance between having a strictly SBR capaign to eliminate all of a country’s cash (usually Germany, but occasionally Rusia, and rarely England) which is a little boring, and the opposing view in which just about the only time someone SBRs is when their bomber has nothing else to do.  I mean how often does Germany need to produce 10 units in 1 turn?  Almost never, unless it it the end of the game for them.  Usually 6-7 is okay, which means that if they repair 15 (less than 6-7 because the cost of repairs means that you can’t build as much) so as to produce 5 units, then the next turns SBR can’t do more than 15 points of damage.  This rule change seems to be more fair, and especially if Germany gets Radar and/or the IC repair tech, then that really limits the effectiveness of the SBRs.

[Guest]

@Bardoly:

@Rakeman:

@Bardoly:

Thank you Krieghund for your answer.  The Fact Sheet was very unclear about this.
With this, I have to agree with Funcioneta that this can be quite detrimental to the smaller ICs, but at least Germany can never be SBR’d in 1 round for all of its $ now.

Couldn’t in LHTR either.

In LHTR, in order to do 20 damage to Germany, USA and UK would each have to dedicated 10 IPC worth of bomber damage.  In this game, USA or UK needs to dedicate that much.  Big difference.  USA sitting back shipping bombers off while UK invades Northwestern Europe should be a viable strategy.  We’ll see.

Yes, but LHTR was the fix which castrated SBR/Rockets.  This rule change seems to have struck a balance between having a strictly SBR capaign to eliminate all of a country’s cash (usually Germany, but occasionally Rusia, and rarely England) which is a little boring, and the opposing view in which just about the only time someone SBRs is when their bomber has nothing else to do.  I mean how often does Germany need to produce 10 units in 1 turn?  Almost never, unless it it the end of the game for them.  Usually 6-7 is okay, which means that if they repair 15 (less than 6-7 because the cost of repairs means that you can’t build as much) so as to produce 5 units, then the next turns SBR can’t do more than 15 points of damage.

Yes, but LHTR was the fix which castrated SBR/Rockets.  This rule change seems to have struck a balance between having a strictly SBR capaign to eliminate all of a country’s cash (usually Germany, but occasionally Rusia, and rarely England) which is a little boring, and the opposing view in which just about the only time someone SBRs is when their bomber has nothing else to do.  I mean how often does Germany need to produce 10 units in 1 turn?  Almost never, unless it it the end of the game for them.  Usually 6-7 is okay, which means that if they repair 15 (less than 6-7 because the cost of repairs means that you can’t build as much) so as to produce 5 units, then the next turns SBR can’t do more than 15 points of damage.  This rule change seems to be more fair, and especially if Germany gets Radar and/or the IC repair tech, then that really limits the effectiveness of the SBRs.

I disagree, nerfing a broken mechanic is a good thing IMO.  I don’t know about other players, but if I was Germany and only producing 5-7 units a turn, I’d be wondering how long it would take for Russia to run me down.  It is nice that damage doesn’t HAVE to be repaired completely, but most likely, it often will be, or at least enough to hurt badly.