Pearl Harbour

[Afrikakorps]

The European Axis Builds will likely be:

G1: 2x Infantry, 6x Artillery
G2: 7x Tanks, 3x Mechanized Infantry, 1 Bomber
G3: 7x Tanks, 3x Mechanized Infantry
G4: 5x Bombers
G5: 5x Bombers

I1: 1x Tank, 1x Mechanized Infantry
I2: 1x Tank, 2x Mechanized Infantry
I3: 1x Tactical Bomber
I4: 1x Fighter
I5: 1x Fighter

[Omega1759]

Afrikakorps:

You can write all you want for your enjoyment but I assure you that testing the strategies online (against a worthwhile opponent, try someone ranked tier 2) is far more rewarding than discussing them. Go play your strategy and start a discussion topic showing an applied example once the game is done. Much more fulfilling and entertaining than debating hypotheticals on paper IMO.

[Arthur Bomber Harris]

100% agreed that strays should be play tested against at least one good opponent. If you have an Axis plan, give Allies a 30-40 PU bid or play a balance mod match. Pearl Harbor has largely been ignored by better League players because it takes so long to redeploy the fleet to the critical Money Islands and Mainland Asia. Meanwhile Anzac, India, and China could be getting out of control.

I am sure that pretty much any plan can work against noobs, especially without a bid.

[Arthur Bomber Harris]

Okay, I took the time to play through the first round assuming average luck.  Here are some of the obvious weaknesses of the plan:

1. China + UK have no trouble reclaiming Yunnan and holding it tightly.  Add in a few Russian reinforcements on R2 and Japan is completely wrecked in Mainland Asia.

2. The lone Borneo Japanese soldier likely can be killed on UK1.  The transport will be sunk by an ANZAC fighter which lands in Borneo.  Japan will require a long time before they can get the Money Islands… perhaps never

3)  The Japanese fleet next to Hawaii can likely be sunk by the combined efforts of US + ANZAC.

Besides being screwed in the Pacific, the Money Islands, and in Mainland Asia, this plan looks great!  If you are going to do Pearl Harbor, send mostly planes and capture Wake Island.  Have your planes land on the carriers in SZ31.  That way you don’t have to worry about losing Japanese carriers in counterattacks, and can bring your fleet back to the Money Islands by J3.

If Russia sends a mech+tank+planes towards China on R1, absolutely forget about doing a Pearl Harbor attack.

[Omega1759]

@Arthur:

Okay, I took the time to play through the first round assuming average luck.  Here are some of the obvious weaknesses of the plan:

1. China + UK have no trouble reclaiming Yunnan and holding it tightly.  Add in a few Russian reinforcements on R2 and Japan is completely wrecked in Mainland Asia.

2. The lone Borneo Japanese soldier likely can be killed on UK1.  The transport will be sunk by an ANZAC fighter which lands in Borneo.  Japan will require a long time before they can get the Money Islands… perhaps never

3)  The Japanese fleet next to Hawaii can likely be sunk by the combined efforts of US + ANZAC.

Besides being screwed in the Pacific, the Money Islands, and in Mainland Asia, this plan looks great!  If you are going to do Pearl Harbor, send mostly planes and capture Wake Island.  Have your planes land on the carriers in SZ31.  That way you don’t have to worry about losing Japanese carriers in counterattacks, and can bring your fleet back to the Money Islands by J3.

If Russia sends a mech+tank+planes towards China on R1, absolutely forget about doing a Pearl Harbor attack.

C’mon, you are supposed to fall back and do nothing!

[MarshmallowofWar]

Without playing through this at all, I don’t see any staging of forces for an actual invasion of Hawaii other than dropping three transports into sea zone 6. Suppose the US were to put a blocker out to sea zone 25….you’re fully committed to the invasion of Hawaii but can’t actually do it. Your carriers are out of position, two turns away from anywhere remotely useful. China and the UK are advancing on the mainland. ANZAC will have a real battle fleet by turn four. You will NEVER get the Dutch East Indies, because once you have Hawaii you have to defend it.

If you want to guarantee Hawaii on J2, you have to lock the door open on J1 by taking Midway, killing the ships in sea zone 26, and staging your fleet to sea zone 25. The US can’t attack sea zone with the forces it has available on US1 (well, it can, but it would be pretty dumb…). The Allies can react only by retreating from Hawaii or committing 100% of their resources (including ANZAC planes and ships) to the defense (I don’t remember the odds here, but if my recollection is correct they can dissuade you from actually taking Hawaii). Again though, the problem is that you have to hold it once you’ve taken it, and you still don’t have the Dutch East Indies.

Marsh

[Afrikakorps]

Thank you for your feedback gentleman, let me start off to explain my situation.

I play with my father and brother 2 or 3 times per year and enjoy this game so much! Personally I get a lot of joy out of trying to figure new strategies and optimise them build on feedback from the forum. We are definately not experienced online player but play the game some 10 years now and have a lot of fun playing it (10-12 hours gaming, crazy haha)

I tried the online game but I prefer to play it face to face as you have the laughter, the excitement and the beer together. So unfortunately I will not be able to test my strategies against you for now, maybe on holidays or something I will try again.

Hopefully this will not result into you abondoning giving feedback as it is so greatly appreciated :)

Back to the strategy:
The idea is to win for Japan in the Pacific, so Honolulu and Sydney as VC. With J1 it is easy to force the Allies into defensive modus and especially the UK can be neutered early on, while USA is most dangerous ally. Both China as Russia are unable to contest the seas of the Pacific.

You take Hawaii in J2, but you do not defend it, you move on to Sydney. You can try to take it in J4 and forgo the islands, but I prefer to do it J5 and focus on getting the islands first as these are a hell for the Allies to retake while add crucial income.

The USA can therefore take Hawaii back in USA3, but it will lag behind the Japanese fleet 1 turn so is not able to help defend Sydney on time.

In case you do you J1 and manage to kill the UK battleship + ANZAC destroyer and transport with your own destroyer the pacific is only defended by
UK: cruiser, destroyer
ANZAC: cruiser

While Japan still has
1 battleship, 1 cruiser, 1 destroyer, 2 submarines.

It can take casualties against philipines fleet or battleship though. So luck is indeed important in how much you are able to keep after J1 attacks.

So in J1 I take Borneo. I will also try to save the cruiser against the BB attack. In my J2 I might have that transport + 2 philipines transports plus Japanese fleet (bb, cr, dd, 2 sub minus casualties) + bombers and maybe some aircraft from siam to attack possible allied fleet protecting. UK can attack Borneo transport that will delay the conquest of the money islands but I think the odds are still in my favour even with main fleet at hawaii?

In any case if UK or ANZAC contest the islands, they lose their fleet next turn by Japanese counter-attack and because of their limited income they will have difficulty of recovering fast.

Japanese has 3 transports, build 3 more in J1 and another 2 in J2 so I will be able to respond where I am needed. The defence perimeter 5IPC bonus is nice, but in case the money islands are contested I can send my J1 buy transports to the money islands instead.

J1: 3 transports, 1 artillery
J2: 2 transports, 2 artillery, 2 infantry, 1 minor on FIC
J3: dependent on situation, stack FIC

If the Allies are more defensive as response to the J1 devastation it will be easier to reign the pacific ofcourse. Especially that destroyer vs destroyer battle for ANZAC is a really important one, as it takes out the transport and forces ANZAC to rebuy it in his first turn. All the fleet buys are great as I plan to take Sydney in J5.

In best case scenario (UK does not attack borneo transport)

J1: pearl harbour, borneo, philipiness + extra
J2: hawaii, money islands
J3: malaya, defence perimeter islands
J4: quensland
J5: sydney
J6 onwards: back to hawaii again

So what about UK and China? Well FIC will ofcourse prove crucial here and I can add another minor on Malaya as soon as I get it. I will push against China and then be forced to retreat, if I play it wise I can retreat in time in order to keep China contained while it grows back again. Those 2 infantry with artillery per turn from J3 onwards will ofcourse be really good. Even when China will overrun me, I will be a juggernaut and can attack anywhere at the coastline with several transports.

Same for Siberian forces, I need to contain them, so not lose my head and send all troopa into China. Defend the border with 8 inf and several fighters.

UK, I want to get 2 subs before India convoying it. Combined with UK having lost Borneo, Kwantung and Malaya it will not be able to push hard, especially when FIC is healthy fortified.

In any case, using Pearl Harbour as Japan strategy will result into a very fleet centered Japan so lots of navy builds and likely a massive fleet battle against the USA along the road.

EDIT: I realized an even better alternative. After Sydney go on to India. USA will likely defend Hawaii heavily as soon it retakes it, so taking Calcutta instead might be easier. You can decide at J5 though based on the situation.

What you did with the Pearl Harbour is to keep the USA out of the game for at least USA4 because it will have to rebuild, only builds warships in USA1+2 and start building + advancing from USA3 onwards but when he want to combine it lags behind a turn. In all this time you were expanding as Japan and taking over the pacific islands.

Therefore the rationale behind this strategy is that all the Allies can be contained with minimal troops while USA is the Allied wildcard and by going in hard vs hard you negate this.

[Arthur Bomber Harris]

Your plan still has the big three weaknesses that I mentioned:

1. The Japanese fleet off of Hawaii can be decimated or completely destroyed on US1/ANZAC1.
2. Yunnan will be recaptured and held too strongly for Japan to retake on J2.
3. Without most of your fleet, you are going to struggle to capture and hold the Money Islands. 
         -Borneo gets recaptured on UK1 and Anzac sinks the transport on AN1, setting you back in the money islands.

There is nothing wrong with preferring face-to-face matches.  Do have a battle calculator so that you can run a bunch of options to decide all reasonable responses from the opponent.  You miss out on a bunch of possibilities if you are just judging with your eyes.

[Afrikakorps]

@Arthur:

Your plan still has the big three weaknesses that I mentioned:

1. The Japanese fleet off of Hawaii can be decimated or completely destroyed on US1/ANZAC1.
2. Yunnan will be recaptured and held too strongly for Japan to retake on J2.
3. Without most of your fleet, you are going to struggle to capture and hold the Money Islands.  
        -Borneo gets recaptured on UK1 and Anzac sinks the transport on AN1, setting you back in the money islands.

There is nothing wrong with preferring face-to-face matches.  Do have a battle calculator so that you can run a bunch of options to decide all reasonable responses from the opponent.  You miss out on a bunch of possibilities if you are just judging with your eyes.

Ah thanks sorry I overlooked them, thanks for pointing out!

Can I solve them by

• only air do pearl harbour, rest waits at Wake Island as suggested
• having all not carrier aircraft air in range of Yunnan
• get two man on borneo

I could solve the borneo/yunnan problem by taking only kwantung with the transport so kiangsi troops can all attack china.

EDIT: OK some ideas, I will just accept that Yunnan will be difficult but still go for Borneo, I use 2 infantry and block the Allies from attacking the transport.

Cruiser blocks 37, Destroyer from 33 blocks 42 (instead of attack anzac transport). Conquering all the money islands in J2 is just too sweet and opens up a ton of options early on such as going towards Sydney or Calcutta.

I use the Carrier and its air from from 33 to the Philippines instead of Pearl Harbour.

I do a historical pearl harbour instead of going full on hawaii, so in J1 I attack with:
1 sub, 2 destroyers, 3 tactical, 3 fighters, keeping 1 destroyer alive as blocker.
Main imperial fleet get stationed at Wake Island, if attacks by USA air sacrifice air.

In J2, go to Carolines with main fleet and three new full transports so you have the option of doing a Sydney or Calcutta crush in J4.

I indeed give up the defence perimeter islands NO and the hawaii NO for an earlier capital crush in the pacific as the USA is able to contest the Hawaii NO constantly while taking out sydney or calcutta is extremely difficult to retake as Allies.

Attacking the USA so early will hopefully result into a slower USA that starts to attack the same turn I capture the Australian or British capital. As I can be at the other capital in two turns I hope to get a J6 victory.

The best option is to invade Sydney first, as it is easier for the USA the reinforce, it is more difficult to reach with reinforcements and more difficult to contain.

In J4 you are able to invade Sydney with
6 transports, 1 tank, 4 artillery, 7 infantry + 3 tacticals/fighters + bombardment (2 battleship, 2 cruiser) minus casualties

Sydney can have 13 infantry, 1 artillery, 2 AA, 3 fighters. Hmm those odss do not look good.

OK, I give up the DEI NO with sumatra in favour of taking Western Australia in J2 with 1 transport containing 1 tank + 1 infantry. Then in my J3 all my Asian airforce can land in Western Australia for a J4 Sydney Crush while that transport can still take Sumatra in J3. The tank in Western Australia can still participate against Sydney attack.

Suddenly you attack with
5 transports, 1 tank, 4 artillery, 5 infantry, 11 fighters, 8 tactical bombers, 2 bombers + bombardment minus casualties = dead Sydney

A0: 10
A1: 20
A2: 9

It has 39 IPC to build a defence, every investment in ships or fighter will make it easier for me.

J5 fly back to Asia
J6 crush India

Only thing that is scary is Yunnan. I do have minimal 4 land troops (hopefully 3 more) + 9 fighters, 6 tactical bombers and 2 bombers to attack it in J2 though so can hopefully persuade the Allies to not stack it. If I do not have to attack Yunnan all-out in J2 I can attack Malaya instead which is a much nicer target as I can build a factory there in J3.

To extra annoy the USA I will attack its cruiser + transport with a sub while also doing 106 with two subs.

[Afrikakorps]

Correction: I will crush Sydney in J4 with the following numbers

7 transports: 1 tank, 6 artillery, 7 infantry, 11 fighters, 8 tactical bombers, 2 bombers + bombardment (minus casualties)

J1: 3 transports + artillery - Pearl Harbour
J2: 2 transports (loaded) + minor in FIC
J3: troops in FIC and Japan + minor in Malaya
J4: troops in FIC, Japan and Malaya - Take Syney
J5: troops in FIC, Japan and Malaya
J6: defend Japan against USA - Take Calcutta

Likely actions from USA
USA1: rebuild fleet
USA2: rebuild fleet
USA3: hawaii
USA4: Japan or he tries to liberate Sydney in USA6 by taking caroline islands, in which case the Allies have lost as I can reinforce with planes, make sure I have a blocker close.

UK income
UK1: 8 IPC
UK2: 5 IPC
UK3: 4 IPC
UK4: 4 IPC
UK5: 3 IPC
Crushed (24 IPC - 8 infantry to build additional troops lol)

I hope my 7 artillery buy for Germany and tank + mech for Italy will force Russia into defensive mode, when extremely lucky he will even shuffle his Siberian troops back to Russia!

Rationale for Pearl Harbour strategy: Imperial Fleet gets to be useful all turns
1: attack 1/2 of USA fleet, threaten Hawaii
2: position so you force ANZAC and UK to defend, also threaten still weakish USA fleet to not come to Hawaii yet
3: destroy blockers and surround Sydney and keep USA threatened (altough now USA likely strong enough)
4: crush Sydney
5: only turn doing nothing useful
6: crush Calcutta

In case something went terribly wrong and the mainland is getting overrun by UK, Chinese and Russian forces in your Japanese turn 2/3 decide to leave the Pacific for what it is, do an India crush in J4 and go for Russia crush helping the Axis out at the Europe map. You can attack Egypt for example in J6 with your 7 transports + fleet + air.

[MarshmallowofWar]

I just don’t see it sir. Your plan seems to rely on a number of flawed assumptions, namely that the US has to go on the defensive instead of relieving ANZAC.

1. The only way you can stop the US from blocking your J2 invasion is by staging your entire fleet in sea zone 25 (off Midway).
2. If you don’t park enough ships in sea zone 26, the US and ANZAC can park enough fleet there that you are forced to fight a naval battle before you can invade Hawaii. You could be facing the entire sea zone 10 fleet and the ANZAC cruiser in sea zone 26 (with a three fighter scramble), plus additional US forces in Hawaii augmented by ANZAC fighters. Any losses you take in these battles are gone, and the US has a new fleet sitting in sea zone 10 as well (probably all subs) to sink your ships. If you pull blockers out of your fleet to keep them at bay (it takes THREE destroyers to do this [in sea zones 12, 13, and 27], meaning that you can only build two transports on J1 [because you undoubtedly lost one in sea zone 26 on J1 unless you were incredibly lucky]), then your fleet is taking hits on planes, battleships, and carriers during the sea zone 26 battle. Anything you lose is essentially gone and you don’t have enough income from J1 to rebuild it all with your J2 build. Plus, your odds of actually taking Hawaii in a full defense scenario are not great.
3. In the mean time, ANZAC can hunker down and build three infantry per turn. India can actually send help to ANZAC while you’re messing around at Hawaii. After your irreplacable air losses in sea zone 26 and Hawaii, good luck getting through three full turns of ANZAC infantry builds. The longer you wait, the worse it gets.

If you do take ANZAC, you’ve now lost Hawaii, don’t have the Dutch East Indies, have suffered two rounds of severe losses to both fleet and air force, and the US is coming right behind you to annihilate your paltry surviving surface fleet and liberate ANZAC.

The good news here is that you bought Germany two or three extra turns to kill Russia.

Marsh

[Afrikakorps]

In case USA is agressive right off the bat in USA1 I can simply unite my fleet in caroline islands so he is unable to attack as it would be suicide. He will lag two turns behind in getting the USA fleet to equal strength right?

I indeed realized I can not take Hawaii, but still do pearl harbour and take sydney or calcutta in J4 instead. What do I miss?

Imperial fleet is at least 2 BB, 3 full carriers and cruiser when combined, USA can’t defeat this in USA2 with only his coast guard.

[MarshmallowofWar]

Well, the big thing that I see is that committing to war with the US so early means you pretty much have to keep the US engaged, and doing this early limits your income potential.

I’m not saying you can’t make this work (I have a detailed plan that gives it a good chance of success in my list of various openers), but what I am saying is that early losses for Japan without securing sufficient income for replacement is a dangerous path that basically requires you to be consistently lucky to win.

Marsh

[Afrikakorps]

@Marshmallow:

Well, the big thing that I see is that committing to war with the US so early means you pretty much have to keep the US engaged, and doing this early limits your income potential.

I’m not saying you can’t make this work (I have a detailed plan that gives it a good chance of success in my list of various openers), but what I am saying is that early losses for Japan without securing sufficient income for replacement is a dangerous path that basically requires you to be consistently lucky to win.

Marsh

I do make sure I take all the DEI in J2 which is +20 though. If I am correct if you have kwantung, malaya and the border chinese + DEI you are in a good financial position as Japan even without conquered capital.

As Germany + Italy focus on Russia, I plan on sending their fleet to irritate USA also (Italy getting west indies (I2) while German u-boat tries to sink his cruiser in G1.

[Argothair]

Afrikakorps, I like that you’re exploring an unconventional strategy and thinking about how to make it work, but your posts are missing any discussion of the underlying principles or strategies that you’re hoping to use. It’s like an endless series of turn-by-turn directions with no context: “Turn left. Then drive 500 feet. Then turn right. Then drive 200 feet. Then turn right. Then drive 800 feet. Then merge left, then turn right, then drive 200 feet.” And so on. At some point, I can’t keep track of all that information without a way of organizing it in my head. I need you to tie it all together. Tell me something like “you’ll get onto the I-95 highway going north until you get to Philadelphia, and then you’ll circle counter-clockwise through the docks neighborhood until you get to the Ben Franklin bridge across the river.”

What are your goals in attacking Pearl Harbor and Hawaii? What territories do you hope to hold at the end of J4? Where will the US and Japanese fleets typically hang out, and why, and how big will each of them be? What are you giving up by attacking Pearl Harbor on J1, and what do you get for your sacrifice, and under what circumstances is the trade-off worthwhile?

You say things like “I will send the Italian fleet to irritate the USA,” but I can’t tell if that’s part of some coherent battle plan (the Italians provide the margin of victory that helps secure the DEI for Japan?) or if it just seems like fun (ha ha ha, those suckers, nobody expects an Italian Pacific fleet), or if you’re indirectly trying to tell us something about what Italy is doing in Europe (Italy doesn’t need a fleet because it’s building mechs and tanks to invade Ukraine?)

It’s clear that you’re having a lot of fun and that you enjoy dreaming up tactical ideas, and you’re at least somewhat interested in discussing how those ideas might work, but the discussion doesn’t make any sense to me unless you’re able and willing to clearly lay out the pros and cons of your strategy.

[Afrikakorps]

Thanks for your excellent observation. I will organize this mess that so far have been mainly uncoherent unlogical statements withour any clear purpose. To be updated!

[Arthur Bomber Harris]

Do double check that you can take Yunnan on J2 without crazy many losses of planes.  It can be a very Allied big stack sitting on that territory at the end of the first round and I am willing to trade equal unit values to reduce the Japanese air force.  You likely will have lost one or even two planes when going after the UK battleship on J1.  Don’t count on having good luck.

Also double check that you want to first go after Sydney.  A single ANZAC blocker can delay the invasion force until J5.  At that point you have gone a bunch of rounds without having much income.  You have been essentially down 7-8 fighters since you might have lost a couple during the opening round and you will have six planes tied up in the remote parts of the Pacific.  That can be very problematic for the Mainland and Money Island operations.  If you are taking islands on J3-J4, count on a bunch of sunk transports.

[Afrikakorps]

I organized the incoherent mess into a logical strategy at the first page, I hope it is a bit more clear now. I included the Yunnan issue.

Arthur the Imperial Fleet can kill blockers in J3, while the Philippines fleet can also hunt ANZAC ships in J2 already to clear the way for a J4 invasion. Thanks again for the feedback though as it keeps me sharp and improves the strategy!

EDIT: Sorry another random observation, but this might be game changing!

I did make another observation while thinking about a solution for the Yunnan Fortification though as it means UK has just lost 2 infantry to the defense of India. If my calculations are correct India can muster the following force in the defense of Calcutta

14 Infantry, 2 Fighters, 1 Tactical Bombers, 2 AA (2 Infantry less when he fortified Yunnan)

While I can attack it in J3 with the following troops
6 Transports: 1 Tank, 5 Artillery, 6 Infantry, 8 Fighters, 6 Tactical Bombers, 2 Bombers with the Battleship and Carrier from the Philippines attack to defend the transports. This results into a big victory for the Japanese. This means I can crush India in J3 even while doing a Pearl Harbour attack. Do I miss something?

I further have 1 cruiser, 2 destroyers and 1 submarine near India in case nothing died by the defending USA submarine and destroyer in my J1 attack and if UK did not attack my cruiser and destroyer in UK1.

This leads to the conclusion that a naval base in FIC J2 is always a great investment as those 3 build transports can do a J3 India Crush or still do J4 Sydney crush dependent on the situation. Therefore J2 buy will change into 1 minor, 1 naval, 1 transport, 1 artillery, 1 artillery.

In case I can indeed do an India Crush, I could do a Sydney crush in J5, a whole turn earlier! Ofcourse a lot of land troops have died against India, so it is going to cost of lot of air, but in case it is the winning VC, what does it matter? I do have to take Western Australia here in J3 though so 1 less transport doing India Crush. I could attack Sydney with

Surviving India Troops (1 tank, 2 artillery) + full transport from Western Australia and J2 buy so 1 tank, 4 artillery, 1 infantry. All airforce, so 2 bombers, 9 fighters, 8 tactical bombers and bombardment of two Battleship and a Cruiser. This gives 94% chance to victory!

Then USA needs to liberate a VC in USA5 or the Axis win.

[Arthur Bomber Harris]

I haven’t set up a board with the first two turns of moves to see possible Allied counterattack’s, but I am skeptical that you can take the Money Islands and Australia during the first four turns, while still holding most of Mainland Asia and threatening India. You must have very weak opposition if you can execute all of those strategies simultaneously. At some point you will have to deal with leaving sufficient forces to deter the 18 Russian ground units in Amur, opportunistic attacks in the Money Islands, counterstrikes against your W Australia landing force, and an ANZAC blocking ship that is very hard to clear out on J3.  You would be playing a weak opponent if you could do all that you stated by J7.  Having everything collapse like that by J4 is not credible. The only way you could achieve this time schedule is if the Allied Pacific forces are cowering out of incompetence.