Russia Question

[barney]

yea I think in BM they made it so you can’t move into original Russian TTs without being at war with them. Seems like a good fix

[Panther]

@Leatherneckinlv:

This is incorrect….East Poland is a original Russian territory…Germans are neutral…Russia may in fact and has the right to regain it’s territory back from a combatant…neutral Germany now must decide to withdraw or declare war and stay in the territory

Some misunderstandings of the rules here: Germany is not neutral, as it starts the game already being at war. The rules don’t contain a concept of a nation being at war on the one hand and on the other hand being neutral to other nations. A power is either at war or neutral. At the start of the game only USA and Russia are neutral.
In the given scenario Germany is at war - but not with Russia.

It is completely irrelevant, that East Poland is an original Russian territory. At the time Germany does the NCM East Poland is Italian and thus friendly to Germany.

Of course Russia may regain its territory, but it has to declare war on Germany for doing so and fight both occupying nations.

Also the rules don’t contain the concept of a retreating defender. When Russia attacks East Poland it is only Russia that may - during the battle - retreat, provided the retreat rules apply. Neither do the rules contain a concept of a neutral nation that retreats.

@Leatherneckinlv:

Midnight Reaper….there is in fact a combatant in that territory…you would be right if it was only a neutral Germany only in East Poland…this is not the case…there is a Italian combatant in the territory

No, if Russia wants to attack East Poland it must declare war on Germany - so there are two combattants to fight against.

@Leatherneckinlv:

Movement by the Germans into Russia should be a deceleration of war by Germany in my opinion….this is a broken rule that should be clarified more precisely as I am positive Russia may regain it’s territory. Quite broken that Germany can non combat move and collect a bonus for not at war with Russia while it is occupying the territory with absolutely 0 benefit to the Russians and hindering their defense even more

No. Germany does not move into a Russian territory but into an Italian - thus friendly - territory. Not a broken rule, but a core rule of Axis&Allies games that allows to bring units into friendly territories.

Marsh and Midnight_Reaper are correct.

[Leatherneckinlv]

I just play tested this on tripleA and in fact I only had to battle the Italian units and Germany and Russia were in same territory co occupying after the Russian victory

Only thing missing is the verbal instructions by the Russians telling the Germans to withdraw leaving a decision by the Germans to either withdraw or declare war

So yes Russia may only attack the Italians and instruct the Germans to withdraw

[Panther]

@Leatherneckinlv:

Only thing missing is the verbal instructions by the Russians telling the Germans to withdraw leaving a decision by the Germans to either withdraw or declare war

So yes Russia may only attack the Italians and instruct the Germans to withdraw

This is not covered by the rulebooks in any way. Please read my above clarification.

[Leatherneckinlv]

Panther

Germany is not at war with Russia though….they are neutrals to one another

State of war only exists between Italy and Russia

[Leatherneckinlv]

So Russia is attacking Italy…which it can do

Germans were non combat moved there…Russia may in fact ignore the Germans

[Panther]

@Leatherneckinlv:

Panther

Germany is not at war with Russia though….they are neutrals to one another

State of war only exists between Italy and Russia

They are not at war, but neither they are neutral. And the territory is Italian and no longer Russian.
And all of this leads to the fact that Russia has to declare war on Germany for being able to attack East Poland.

Midnight_Reaper had the correct quote from the rulebook about that (see above). Russia can’t attack without DOW on Germany.

[tambo264]

Italians attack Russia, Germany is automatically at war with Russia, that is the assumption that my group has always used.

[Midnight_Reaper]

Another thing to remember is that Italy can-opening for Germany doesn’t stop Russia from declaring war on Germany and punching the Germans in the mouth (emphasis added):

@Axis:

The Political Situation
The Soviet Union
The Soviet Union begins the game at war with no one.
{snip}
As a result, the Soviet Union may not declare war on any Axis power before its fourth turn unless an Axis power declares war on it first. However, if London is captured by an Axis power, the Soviet Union may declare war on its following turn.

But you must declare war on Germany before you can attack a territory with German units inside.

-Midnight_Reaper

[Leatherneckinlv]

The neutral rule can not apply here

those neutral rules are not considering a state of war between 2 countries with a neutral country occupying

this predicament is no where to be found as those neutral rules apply ONLY to peaceful countries and territories

This is NOT the same situation

those rules are not applicable here….if you read carefully no where is there an explanation for a territory at war…all explanations are for territories at peace
This hypothetical territory is at war

[Leatherneckinlv]

Russia did in fact make it clear to Germany that it is not declaring war on Germany and attacking a hostile zone with a declared state of war with Italy

Russia hence MAY ignore German units

territory is already hostile

This scenario can not be found in the rule book

Rule book only identifies peaceful territories ONLY, remember this is now a hostile territory

[tambo264]

Russia can attack a Russian territory that has been captured. If the Germans move into that territory, after being captured, I think the assumption would be that they have also declared war on Russia.

If The Italians captured a Russian territory, and Germany did not go on a full blown offensive on their next turn, and instead decided to consolidate to the Italian captured territory, what would the purpose of this be? Show the Russians and ultimately the Allies exactly what direction you are going, and take it slow? Doesn’t make sense. And furthermore, the rules don’t make it very clear, but if the Italians attack the Russians and take a territory, and the Germans occupy it, that is a declaration of war. Total war in Europe begins.

[Leatherneckinlv]

No Tambo…Germans did not declare war on Russia and non combat moved into the territory to continue getting the 5 IPC bonus for not at war with Russia

Russia then did not declare war on Germany in return and attacked the Italian units and regained the 1 IPC loss

Germany was entitled to get the 5 IPC bonus

[Leatherneckinlv]

Russia was now at war and allowed to gain their bonus income

[Krieghund]

Marshmallow of War, Midnight_Reaper, and P@nther are correct.  TripleA is handling this situation incorrectly.

[Leatherneckinlv]

Those who disagree….show me the rule…I have read said rule and this scenario is no where to be found

I want this enigmatic paradigm answered for when I play among my friends

As I read it…this is a legal Russian move…undetermined by the rules

All rules say Powers not at war…meaning peaceful territory
This territory is at war

Show me the rule not your perception of the rule and I am not saying this in arrogance or by being a butt-head…I want this rule to be clear with me

[weddingsinger]

@Leatherneckinlv:

Those who disagree….show me the rule…I have read said rule and this scenario is no where to be found

Midnight Reaper did quote the rule in like the 3rd post.

Pg 14 (from my Pacific 2nd edition book)
blow up box in top left corner:

“Powers Not at War with One Another”
3rd paragraph
Combat: A power can’t attack a territory controlled by or containing units belonging to a power with which it is not at war.

[Midnight_Reaper]

I’ve been quoting from the rule book. Read the “The Political Situation” section, “The Soviet Union” subsection, on page 9 and “Powers Not at War with One Another” section on page 15, from the Europe 1940 rule book. That’s where you will find what we’ve been quoting to you.

-Midnight_Reaper

[Leatherneckinlv]

Those rules do not apply in this scenario

The Soviet Union was attacked by Italy….both Germany and Russia did not declare war with each other on their turns

That territory is AT WAR

That territory is a Russian territory

Powers not at war applies to say Sweden…this is not the case

I have read these rules over and over and over and none are applicable to this scenario…NONE

Again…this was an originally controlled Russian territory…2 Italy declared war…Germany did not…Russia ONLY declared war on Italy and did not with the Germans and in fact Germans made sure not to declare war on Russia to collect it’s bonus

Folks…the rules do not indicate how to handle this properly

Based on what I read this makes it a legal Russian move

[Leatherneckinlv]

In fact Russian and Germans are actually friendly Neutrals in this scenario