what Hobbes is saying is 100% true. But, where tanks become a real problem for the allies is on Persia. Stack 8+ there and use German force to open Kazhak. Even if the Allies know to look for it, the mere threat of it is often enough for them to give up the Caucausus complex.
Overbuilding Transports with UK
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@Ender:
Another thread where Jennifer fails to “get it” - sigh.
Yes, UK can only build 8 units, but it usually has units sitting in Norway / Karelia as well, so it can easily fill 6+ transports. This creates a BIGGER threat to WEU/GER than with 4 TRNs alone, requiring a bigger defence, meaning less pressure on Russia. Simple.
Oh, I get it. You want to waste British resources to create an implied threat that you have no intention of using because if used it would drain your resources already transported to Europe.
I’m just saying it’s a stupid idea. I get the idea. And, in the very end of the game, when Germany is down to Berlin, France and Italy, then it might be okay to do it. But by then, anything England does is okay to do because it’s already game over, Germany just doesn’t know it yet.
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The difference is Germany having to hold back forces for Western, Eastern, and Berlin sufficient to defend both from a 12 division (plus air and BB) attack instead of only an 8 division attack.
And it is not an implied threat… leave one of those territories under-defended, and I’ll pull the trigger on it and take it… with a USA follow up :-D
Defend against it, and UK just keeps shuttling via Norway to Karelia and points beyond… the threat to Western, Berlin, and Eastern never diminishing.
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I’ll remember that. :P I’ll gladly give you W. Europe to pull your forces away so I can invade Moscow without worrying about some pesky Brits retaking it!
And if you don’t take it, then it is an implied threat. I CAN hit you with 12 ground units + navy/air, but I only MAKE 8 and that means half of last round’s deployment is being undeployed AND that means that I am weaker on your other fronts AND since Germany’s already defending against 16 units (8 US 8 UK) odds are you are getting destroyed and making life a LITTLE easier for America, the nation that doesn’t NEED the income, generally speaking.
As I said. It’s nice if you have the extras. (Like if you reduce Japan to an island) or if you are massive in Europe and build an IC in Canada and need more to transport from there. But to just go off building transports like the TripleA Artificial Intelligence is silly and wasteful.
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@Cmdr:
Oh, I get it. You want to waste British resources to create an implied threat that you have no intention of using because if used it would drain your resources already transported to Europe.
That line shows that you don’t get it. No one except you said this is a waste of resources. The threat is real, or alternately, all threats are “implied” until they are carried out.
And as Switch said, if Germany under-defends WEU, the Allies WILL take it, wipe out the German defenders, and force other German units back away from Russia to re-take WEU, unless Germany wants to let the allies reinforce WEU and build an IC there…
It is by no means an empty threat.
The transports create what we call “force multiplication” or “force projection” - while they are not offensive units themselves, they do wonders for your land units. Think of them as adding wings to your ground units. What would you pay for Inf + Armor that were capable of striking across the ocean?
Jennifer, if the Allies are sitting pretty in W. Europe, you now have other priorities besides taking Russia…
Nothing is being “undeployed” it is being moved from a backwater like Norway to an active battle in WEU.
Regardless of who gets the income, the fact is that Germany has lost it and needs to get it back. And the US CAN make use of an extra 6 IPCs, esp. once they have an IC in WEU.
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Germany loses W. Europe leaving America with a smattering of units left.
Major forces from Germany and S. Europe retake W. Europe ending all threat of British retake now that they’ve depleted their resources on the mainland and America most of their advance forces too. (Since the threat is really 16 units from America + 8 from England for 24 units in a normal game, +4 if you waste the resources for 2 more transports)
Germany then also is free to obliterate what’s left of the allies in E. Europe (Karelia, Norway, Archangelsk, W. Russia, Belorussia, etc, not E. Europe the territory, the geographic region.) And now Russia’s all alone.
Congratulations, you wasted 16 IPC on useless transports then attempted to use them by throwing away ground forces that could have been used in conjunction with the Russians instead of on the wrong side of the war. A mistake I’ve done too many times not to point out to you boys.
On the flip side, England buys two more transports and now has no money to buy ground units resulting in no pressure on Germany and allowing more forces to attack Russia early. Since your 12 unit threat is really only good early in the game. End game, it’s moot because Berlin or Moscow is about to fall in which case, who cares about France?
Either way, you’re not getting an IC in W. Europe because even with 6 transports you cannot possibly bring enough fire power to bear to defeat a force expecting 24 units. (16 USA + 8 UK.) So they have to face 28 units. Whoppie! Odds are, they had enough force to destroy 24 without excessive losses, so they take more losses and destroy 28 this round. And you’re point being?
Mine is, and will be, that England has wasted 16 IPC on 2 useless transports it cannot use because doing so, in MOST games, results in their loss of the game. Assuming just the purchase of 2 transports doesn’t result in their loss!
Unless, of course, you buy them late in the game when it’s already decided who’s going to win and you are trying to finish teh game off faster. In which case, it’s still a waste, but you can afford the waste.
Or, if two transports are in the Pacific and you need 2 more to fully utilize your factory in England. In which case, they are not a waste because you NEED them to move your units into battle.
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Jen, you really DO miss the point.
Western falls, USA reinforces (or better yet takes Southern the same turn).
Germany has to pull back forces from their moscow attack, otherwise UK can use WUE survivors AND the 8 new units in UK to attack berlin, followed by a USA attack on Berlin and a USA build in Southern.
Otherwise you set up a capital trade scenario… the WEAKEST ally for the STRONGEST axis.
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No, Switch, YOU are missing the point.
Western falls to US, Germany liberates.
England cannot take W. Europe from Germany when Germany is defending against the possibility of 24 attackers. (8 English, 16 American.) So England goes up to 12. Germany’s still prepared to handle 24, 12 is half of 24, so Germany is more then ready to take out 12 as well as 8. But in this case, those 12 might reduce the Geramns enough to let the Americans take W. Europe just in time for Germany to take it back and burning up at least 28 Allied units + whatever fighters were killed in the attack to AA or defensive fire.
Honestly, unless the game’s already over, I fail to see how 4 more British guys moving around is going to do anything but weaken and distract the allies and buying the two transports (except in the rare cases I already mentioned) are just a waste of 16 IPCs. That’s 2 infantry, 2 armor England could have built instead. I’m more concerned about +2 Infantry +2 Armor in English control then if England can suicide 12 infantry instead of 8 infantry in a wild attempt to reduce W. Europe enough that America can use 100% of their transports taking it with a couple units left. A couple units that will be slaughtered by the combined forces of Germany and S. Europe since NEITHER are under threat anymore now that all the allies died in France.
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So let’s get this straight…
Germany can defend WEU, GER, and EEU against a combined Allied offensive on the turn AFTER UK gets paid for WEU and Germany has to expend forces to liberate it?
And defend all 3 while STILL maintaining pressure on Russia?
Bring it on girl! I call BS on that one in a KGF game (which it certainly is if we are talking about a UK overload of TRNs anyway).
You are in queue behind Sub Dude…
You take the Axis with 7 bid, and let’s put your hypothesis to the test… -
No, you are missing it. UK NEVER GETS PAID FOR W. EUROPE, Switch. No way they can take W. Europe when it is defended to win against a UK + US double whammy. All UK can hope to do is knock down the stack enough that America actually has a chance to win. And if they do that, odds are America’s chance to win isn’t all that much better so it’s lightly defended and easily retaken with forces from Berlin and Rome.
And of course, this means you don’t have to protect Southern anymore, since America blew it’s wad in W. Europe moving all their transports out of position for the shuck AND using up all their available forces in the attack. England’s blown 1.5 rounds of builds. That means Germany has a full two rounds to recover before having to defend against another 1, 2 punch by the allies in W. Europe.
That’s 2 full rounds I can focus on rebuilding and moving forward on Russia who is now helpless without any allied aid.
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@ncscswitch:
Bring it on girl!
It is time for the crack pipe.
8-)
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OK, so you have WEU defended against UK solo. You ALSO have Berlin and Eastern so defended, and Southern against USA, and Karelia/Belo/Ukraine against Russia.
Sounds to me like a series of modest stacks which can be broken by any combination of Allied attacks, at a point of the Allies choosing…
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You have to defend all of that anyway, Switch. Defending against 4 more British guys is not going to adjust your stacks as Germany at all. It will only decrease your odds of survival by 1 or 2% in most cases.
That’s the point I am getting at. It’s a threat, but it’s also a paper tiger. The allies would have to suicide most of their units, pull out of position with what they have left in a hope of getting W. Europe until Germany’s next turn and America will be the one who has it if anyone does. Yes, you’ll kill a stack of German defenders, but you’ll lose a stack of British and a stack of Americans to do it. Net gain Axis since this also means Russia’s left alone with no support making life easier for Germany and Japan.
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Only if Germany has enough offensive units left to keep going after Russia.
And it is NOT a paper Tiger to be trading 6 IPC instead of 6 IPC being secure.
We are also talking about the mid-game by the time that UK has 6 TRN, and extra units in Norway anyway… by which time the USA can do their own overload amphib…
The threat is NOT western, it is BERLIN.
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Berlin’s not a threat because America cannot land a full 8 transports of equipment in Berlin without telegraphing the move and thus, proffering to the Germans time to compensate.
It’s a paper tiger for THIS MOVE. England isn’t necessarily a paper tiger, it might be, it might not. But the extra transports are still a waste. They don’t effect more then a +1 or +2 infantry stack in W. Europe to prevent the landing or no extra units to allow the allies to suicide both forces on the shores. Meanwhile, Germany will have Caucasus and can work on stacking there and at home until the allies have no chance, even with 100 transports, to take the land while Japan takes out Russia - which is how the game usually goes anyway.
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USA TRN fleet in SZ7.
Now you have a risk to:
Western
Germany
Eastern
KareliaPick what to defend. Because one of the others is being ripped to shit. :evil:
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Just show her already, ncsswitch.
:-o
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Jen is 0 and 3 against me…, and has point blank stated in another thread that i am a superior gamer to her. How much more proof does she need? :evil:
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But I do have her on the list for my League game after next (next is a re-match with SubDude).
Pre-negotiated bid of 7 IPC (because anything over 7 and I am the Axis, and the point is to test Allied TRN threats.
So, minor advantage to Jen… KGF known in advance. :roll:
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Actually, it’s more like 2 and 0 because the dice were so fracked after Russia 1 in the very first game you didn’t even want to play, so we restarted. Let’s not misrepresent ourselves here.
And secondly, you have 8 US Transports in SZ 7? Great. I have Germany, E. Europe and W. Europe defended. There’s no threat to Southern, so I don’t have to defend it.
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@Cmdr:
You have to defend all of that anyway, Switch. Defending against 4 more British guys is not going to adjust your stacks as Germany at all. It will only decrease your odds of survival by 1 or 2% in most cases.
I’m sorry, did you just say that you would defend Germany the same whether UK had 4 or 6 Transports in range?
That’s pure BS. From my experience with the dice sim, adding even just one Inf can make a significant difference to your chance of survival in a battle of this size. Further, while the first wave of a 1-2 punch is often suicidal, the 2nd wave is much more profitable.
I love how you just make up numbers, like 1 or 2%.
If the enemy is attacking with 4 extra units, you pretty much need to add 3 units in defence at least, esp. if you are facing potential 1-2 attacks. If you have three or four territories facing that additional threat, that’s 9-12 Inf you have to keep back from the press on Russia.
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