Wait, What? Oh my!

[larrymarx]

Have China save up their money each turn. The Americans can grab some small coastal territory and then a Chinese stack pops up out of nowhere, ideally right next to a minor IC.

[PainState]

@larrymarx:

Have China save up their money each turn. The Americans can grab some small coastal territory and then a Chinese stack pops up out of nowhere, ideally right next to a minor IC.

Never thought of that one, that is a great idea. China is a unique country and cannot be conquered in the traditional sense. So they can save all the money from turn 1, they are eliminated from the game in turn 5 and have 67 IPC stashed away. USA moves in and takes a coastal territory and then China drops 23 INF on the coast.

good idea.

Now that I think about it more. Why is that not a standard China plan? Think about it. China keeps buying troops, attempting to stave off the Japan romp going on, which is most likely a failed effort in A&A 1940, why keep repeating failure?

Japan on turn 4 realizes china has 41 IPC saved up, never bought one troop,  only have 3 territories left and still collecting some income. Japan starts to worry about a USA quick strike force hitting the coast next to the Manchurian or Shangai factory and allowing China to mass build ON TOP OF THE USA forces.

How does that effect the Japan player? Is he stunned?

[larrymarx]

If the player is new or not paying attention, it will surprise them, maybe catastrophically. If the player knows what’s coming, they will want to spread their assets out but keep reserve troops and air in range so that when the Chinese storm down from the heavens they can be stopped. This will hamper their mobility and keep them worried and in a more defensive state.

With this plan you are giving up income from Chinese territories to the Japanese earlier, so you have to justify it by coordinating it so that when the Chinese descend there are other stacks around the map stepping it up at the same time and Japan can’t deal with everything at once.

As to why this play isn’t standard, I have found that the Chinese can actually do some good in the early stages of the game, especially against a J1. You just throw everything at Yunnan, move the Brits in there too. Sure the Japanese can smash you but they lose all their ground and a bunch of air. Mission accomplished. You can’t do anything else with the Chinese so you may as well use them as the breaker to the Japanese wave. You bring the Russians in too and if they decide to crush both stacks they’ve got nothing left for Calcutta.

My response as Japan would probably be to let the Russians have northern China in this scenario, at least for a few turns, and this is likely a better result than just holding everything back until America shows up. Maybe China can start saving up 3-8 IPC’s per turn once this has occurred instead of replacing their Yunnan stack and then come back with a vengeance mid-game.

[GeneralHandGrenade]

If you don’t spend any Chinese money they will only last a couple of turns. They wouldn’t be popping up next to an IC because they wouldn’t own any territories near one and can’t pop up on Japanese territory.

If you’re looking for one on the Pacific map, then try the Sneaky Karl. (surprise DOW by ANZAC preventing Japan from loading their transports).

[larrymarx]

GeneralHandGrenade, go back and read what I wrote. It’s a surprise move that uses the Americans to give the Chinese their territory to pop up on.

I’m going to call this one the “heavenly kingdom”.

[GeneralHandGrenade]

I see. I have to agree with you that it’s a better idea to spend your money early. You might as well try to keep making money as long as possible instead of just hoarding a small amount for a possible landing by the Americans later in the game.

[simon33]

@PainState:

I can think of 2 sneaky plans the Allies can do against Italy if Italy is not aware of what is going on. What about on the Pacific map? any ideas of sneaky plans from Japan or the Allies?

Well the sneaky move I’m aware of is USA landing on Korea and being reinforced by USSR. Mongolian rule remains active. This move seems to peter out unless UK Pacific are doing well.

[larrymarx]

@simon33:

Well the sneaky move I’m aware of is USA landing on Korea and being reinforced by USSR. Mongolian rule remains active. This move seems to peter out unless UK Pacific are doing well.

I think the Allies need to have all of these moves in their arsenal - the sneaky Karl, the heavenly kingdom, the Korean slide, and anything else we can come up with. They need to employ them aggressively and proficiently but only when it is to their advantage to do so, slipping in and catching the Japanese off guard as soon as they can in order to save Calcutta so that they can refocus their attention on the advancing German hordes in time to save the world from the encroaching darkness.

[Caesar-Seriona]

How about that famous situation where France actually fights and doesn’t get conquered?

[simon33]

@Caesar:

How about that famous situation where France actually fights and doesn’t get conquered?

That isn’t really a move though. Nothing the allies do can bring it about, unless the axis are trying Italy strong when they shouldn’t.

[KaLeu]

@PainState:

USA moves up to SZ 112 Takes Denmark and Norway and if the Axis are really sleeping at the wheel take out Western Germany.

You don’t need to take Norway. To move through the straits, only Denmark needs to be in Allied hands at the start of the British turn.

[ASIA ENGULFED]

WHO PLAYS IN ROCHESTER, NY –---- RED_CASTLE_01@HOTMAIL.COM

[Cow]

Defend Berlin, leave WG and Denmark empty. Duh winning.

[simon33]

WG empty! That’s when you’re getting a bit desperate isn’t it?

[Cow]

No, Russia is important to take quickly. WG is trash, Berlin produces 10 units, more than enough, italy gets it back for you, bam 3 more, france is 3 more. How many units you need after Moscow is taken? You can use Karelia etc for air to support ground you make on berlin to take back west europe if it gets reclaimed. This is easy to do because you are fighting on your turf (and in order for the allies to shuffle 10+ units a round they need at least 10 transports if they are shuffling to spain, 15 if they are dropping in.  UK can’t produce middle east while dump trucking on europe at the same time (maybe 40 ipc tops of units)

So yeah you can take it back after.

[simon33]

Hmm.

You still only have a minor on WG after doing that move. That makes things more difficult for you. You can upgrade it but it sets you back 20IPC.

How are you defending Normandy while doing this? If you’re allowing USA on Normandy, that’s a few more units you need to worry about. Are you advocating leaving that with French ownership perhaps?

[wheatbeer]

@larrymarx:

I’m going to call this one the “heavenly kingdom”.

More unorthodox than surprise, but still an interesting idea to consider and I like your name for it  :-D

I will keep it in the back of my head in case I spot a good scenario to test it in.

Maybe this could work if Japan is making a heavier than normal rush of land units in the early game and it’s obvious that China won’t be able to make a good exchange in Yunnan?

[KaLeu]

@wheatbeer:

@larrymarx:

I’m going to call this one the “heavenly kingdom”.

More unorthodox than surprise, but still an interesting idea to consider and I like your name for it  :-D

I will keep it in the back of my head in case I spot a good scenario to test it in.

Maybe this could work if Japan is making a heavier than normal rush of land units in the early game and it’s obvious that China won’t be able to make a good exchange in Yunnan?

This has been discussed before, see: http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=36062.0

Back then, people also agreed that it was probably not a great idea as a general strategy. There was an interesting post by Nerquen though:

@nerquen:

I found the strategy of saving Chinesse income working pretty well in my hands, see here for an example: http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=35735.135

I don’t strictly save all Chinese income from the very start. Instead I first buy as much as I can to hold Yunnan as long as I can. Once Yunnan cannot be challenged anymore and Japan is strong enough such that it is just question of time it will conquer all China I stop purchasing with China and simply back up into the west corner. Japan is still forced to send a large force to kill my remaining Chinese as he cannot know if I will not buy 10 inf last moment possibly reinforced from Russia. So if Japan sends too little force I place my 10 Chinese in west. On the other hand, if opportunity arise, as it did in the linked game, US sends a TT to Manchuria and China builds 10 inf on top, then anzac lands fighters and Russian forces from Amur join the party to form a mighty allied stack in the back of Japan. The stack does not have much offensive power but can’t be eliminated cheaply.

[wheatbeer]

Thanks Herr KaLuen, I never saw your original thread  :-)

I don’t think I’d ever save China’s round 1 income (unless Japan did something truly weird) … but I absolutely agree with nerquen’s logic in the quote you posted.

[Gargantua]

I have used the Chinese save income trick before - but onlylate game, once china is in good control of its borders.

By saving the Chinese income you essentially end up with a “rapid response” force, and it’s a big stick to wave around; as placed units can be attacked or avoided, and are slow to respond, but a saved income can be anywhere on your next turn.