Nit picky German Economizer

[Jennifer]

Yea, what he is forgetting is the Russian stack was obliterated by the Germans putting the entire Allied offensive in very serious question, especially since he had nothing left to defend against Japan or Germany.

He’ll try to say if he knew I was going to attack it then he wouldn’t have moved it in range.  But that’s an invalid argument.  He knew there was a chance I would attack it and he did not know at the time it was going to be my last move in the game, but decided to move there anyway because he thought I’d be too afraid to attack it.

Heck, if we want to go back in time of the game, I could go back to Russia 1 before it moved and say “Look at the Axis, they are in a very strong position!”

But that’s not feasible just like cherry picking a frame from the middle of the game and changing some moves to prevent what actually happened from happening is feasible.

[frood]

Look, it’s a fact that you have funny ideas about dice.

It’s also a fact that you got lucky in your attack on Ukraine. With average luck, BOTH of us would have had our stacks eliminated.

However, I’ve said all along that my move into Ukraine was a mistake. Just because I’m better than you doesn’t mean I’m perfect.  :wink:

What’s  your point? I agree, Russia was in bad shape after G5. My point is that it was ONE mistake, and that prior to that, I was doing very well. I say we have a re-match, this time no prescribed openings, just mono a mono.

[cyan]

I have only read teh last couple of pages of Ender and Jenn duking it out. so I appoligeze if my comment makes no sense. My take on the Karelia blitz is this. This is assuming Russia takes both terrortories back rd. 2

Archangle 2 ipc for Germany
Kareliia 2 ipc for Germany
3/6 tank hit * 3 ipc  = 1.5 ipc

• 5 for loss of tank
  Therefore teh blitz gives Germany a .5 ipc advantage in German favour. It also forces the Russians to divert forces to the north. so i say it is good for Germany to blitz. gives russia more to deal with and u no economic hurt. actually its is a -1 ipc advantage or a 2 ipc advantage for Germany.

[frood]

You can’t really count the 2 IPCs for Karelia because Germany can get those without sacrificing the tank. The question is whether it is worth putting the tank into archangel for the ADDITIONAL 2 IPCs.n

[cyan]

I think it is more situtaioall then. Is worth risking 3 ipcs or 0 ipc loss to draw forces off another russian attack. so you  would have to see if archangel could stop russia from attacking something else or give u better odds in another battle. SO it all depends on the results of R1.

[axis_roll]

@cyan:

I think it is more situtaioall then. Is worth risking 3 ipcs or 0 ipc loss to draw forces off another russian attack. so you  would have to see if archangel could stop russia from attacking something else or give u better odds in another battle. SO it all depends on the results of R1.

17 pages to reach this conclusion…. gads!  :|

[frood]

@axis_roll:

@cyan:

I think it is more situtaioall then. Is worth risking 3 ipcs or 0 ipc loss to draw forces off another russian attack. so you  would have to see if archangel could stop russia from attacking something else or give u better odds in another battle. SO it all depends on the results of R1.

17 pages to reach this conclusion…. gads!  :|

Esp. as that’s not the actual conclusion - the blitz doesn’t really draw forces off of any other Russian attack. Russia can take Archangel with just ground forces from Moscow, thus not affecting the battles in Ukraine / Belo / Karelia. The only way for Germany to change this would be to try to put as big a stack in Karelia as possible, so that Russian Armor would be exposed if it moved into Archangel w/ just 1-2 Inf as fodder.

But even with that, I think Russia might have enough to then wipe out that Karelia stack. Haven’t analyzed that though.

[Jennifer]

@Ender:

Look, it’s a fact that you have funny ideas about dice.

It’s also a fact that you got lucky in your attack on Ukraine. With average luck, BOTH of us would have had our stacks eliminated.

However, I’ve said all along that my move into Ukraine was a mistake. Just because I’m better than you doesn’t mean I’m perfect.  :wink:

What’s  your point? I agree, Russia was in bad shape after G5. My point is that it was ONE mistake, and that prior to that, I was doing very well. I say we have a re-match, this time no prescribed openings, just mono a mono.

It’s also a fact that you got lucky in most of your attacks and defenses.  With average luck, you would never have been earning in the 30’s with Russia but rather would have been relegated to the low twenties, maybe the upper teens or less with strategic bombing raids. :P

We can do a regular match.  I won’t call it a rematch since you don’t want to test anything and you, presumably, want to play to the death/surrender. :)

Only caveats I would have to our game is:

Battlemap
AA.org dicey system (so results can be viewable)
Blind Bid 100% placement, but we can use frood.net for the bid if you want.

Can even make it a league game. :P

[frood]

Blind bid 100% means no saving any cash?

I’d really prefer triplea, if the dice server works.

[Jennifer]

100% means you can put 100% on the board or 0% or anything in between.  basically, not a FIDA bid, they’re dumb IMHO.

And I have yet to get tripleA to function.

[trihero]

I think it is more situtaioall then. Is worth risking 3 ipcs or 0 ipc loss to draw forces off another russian attack. so you  would have to see if archangel could stop russia from attacking something else or give u better odds in another battle. SO it all depends on the results of R1.

That means everyone who agreed with me is right - it’s not a good normal move to make. It’s a situational one that depends on bad luck of the Russians, it has no merit otherwise.

[U-505]

The biggest reason you can’t count Karelia in the blitz is because Germany has to leave an infantry in Karelia, anyway. Otherwise, you risk a Russian armor blitz to Norway/infantry block in Karelia, 1 fighter+some inf each going to Belo/Ukr, and 1 infantry+all other Russian armor to Arch. In that case, if the UK kills the Baltic TP, Russia will collect on Norway for the rest of the game. Might as well just take Karelia with an inf and be done with it.

And Bean, I’ll get around to responding in our discussion. Keep forgetting about it. Got my mind on the tourney.

[trihero]

Oh ok thanks U-505, was wondering if you got my message or not, I appreciate the heads up! Tournament comes first after all  :mrgreen:

The biggest reason you can’t count Karelia in the blitz is because Germany has to leave an infantry in Karelia, anyway. Otherwise, you risk a Russian armor blitz to Norway/infantry block in Karelia, 1 fighter+some inf each going to Belo/Ukr, and 1 infantry+all other Russian armor to Arch. In that case, if the UK kills the Baltic TP, Russia will collect on Norway for the rest of the game. Might as well just take Karelia with an inf and be done with it.[/quot

Hmm, are you saying you should take Karelia with an inf regardless? Russia blitzing to Norway is iffy if you leave the 3 inf there and if they only have 1 arm in W. Russia due to a Ukraine/W. Russia attack. In that one case I would still blitz Karelia and out and leave nothing there.

[Jennifer]

@U-505:

The biggest reason you can’t count Karelia in the blitz is because Germany has to leave an infantry in Karelia, anyway. Otherwise, you risk a Russian armor blitz to Norway/infantry block in Karelia, 1 fighter+some inf each going to Belo/Ukr, and 1 infantry+all other Russian armor to Arch. In that case, if the UK kills the Baltic TP, Russia will collect on Norway for the rest of the game. Might as well just take Karelia with an inf and be done with it.

And Bean, I’ll get around to responding in our discussion. Keep forgetting about it. Got my mind on the tourney.

Probably, not necessarily.

What if you left 5 Infantry and a fighter in Norway?  (3 Starting + 2 from Transport) etc.

Even without the fighter, I doubt Russia’s blitzing Norway.

[frood]

I’ve never seen Germany do that, but I recently asked (somewhere else) if anyone ever put a bid in Norway. If you had that bid there + two units by TRN, you might keep it out of allied hands for quite a while…

[U-505]

Germany starts off pretty lean with infantry so between reinforcing Western from the Allies and the 5 inf in Norway you probably won’t have enough units to keep Russia from advancing heavily into Ukraine or at the very least Belorussia. You’ll most likely be able to make them retreat the following turn but you’ll be losing that income for a turn and Russia will only have to trade 2 territories on their turn so they won’t have to use offensive ground units to trade a third territory on R2.

[Jennifer]

@U-505:

Germany starts off pretty lean with infantry so between reinforcing Western from the Allies and the 5 inf in Norway you probably won’t have enough units to keep Russia from advancing heavily into Ukraine or at the very least Belorussia. You’ll most likely be able to make them retreat the following turn but you’ll be losing that income for a turn and Russia will only have to trade 2 territories on their turn so they won’t have to use offensive ground units to trade a third territory on R2.

But it IS possible to have 5 infantry in Norway on G2. :P

I never said it was recommended or even a moderately good move.  I just said it was possible, and a way to prevent Russia from blitzing Norway. Actually, it might even be enough to keep England from attacking Norway.

[U-505]

Well, that’s the dilemma. If you leave too few units the UK can destroy them and if you leave too many you’re giving Russia an opportunity.

I usually leave it empty just because I don’t want to leave those units exposed and they are more needed elsewhere. Despite being only a couple territories away from Germany, Norway is just too isolated to defend properly.

[Jennifer]

Actually, I think with no ground forces Norway is pretty well defended as it is.

England has to attack the German fleet in SZ 5 if they want to land in Norway on Round 1.  If you built a carrier, that’s end of that plan right then.  If you are like me and did not, then Germany has a VERY good chance of killing 1, 2 or all 3 British aircraft if they go with the OOL of Sub, Sub, Trn, Destroyer.

If England does NOT attack SZ 5 and tries to land in Norway (can only be done from SZs 3 or 6 on UK 1) then Germany with their fighters in W. Europe can hit SZ 3 hard with fleet for fodder so as to minimize the chance of losing fighters.

What does that mean?  England usually does not attack Norway on round 1. :P

[U-505]

@Cmdr:

If England does NOT attack SZ 5 and tries to land in Norway (can only be done from SZs 3 or 6 on UK 1) then Germany with their fighters in W. Europe can hit SZ 3 hard with fleet for fodder so as to minimize the chance of losing fighters.

What does that mean?  England usually does not attack Norway on round 1. :P

Unless the UK lands in Norway from sz3 and builds a DD in sz6. That leaves them more than enough income to add aircraft, a CV, or subs to help clear out the baltic next turn.