Was it worth adding ART to the game?

[Guest]

Russia is a defensive nation after R1 or R2.  As such, ART is just overpriced INF for the most part (unless they have lost their FIGs).

And as Japan I like to keep adding an ART or 2 a round, even late in the game.  Converting a couple of INF up to 2’s, and having some light “punch” in the event the enemy breaks through a line is always worthwhile.

[Jennifer]

Art is good for Russia when they are pressed back, but they have 200 IPC from England and 200 IPC from America sitting in Moscow and they need extra punch to strafe Japanese or German army stacks.

[Weekend Gamer]

I like having the flexibility to buy artillery, one, when I am defending a capital as Jen mentions, and two, when I can’t afford armor.  Artillery’s biggest downside is it’s lack of mobility.  There is no substitute for buying armor for going offensive, and that primarily means Germany and Japan (for attacking Russia) and the United States (to clear out Africa quickly and get forces to the front to help Russia).  Armor also comes in very handy in Russia when the Weirhmacht arrives because of its higher DEFENSIVE value.  A stack of 10-12+ tanks can really decimate an assault by Germany on the Kremlin.  It can buy Russia the time you need to finish off Germnay.

[frood]

I find I buy very few Art - mostly because I like the mobility of Armor I think. The tactical value is just so great.
Arm are good if you can only build 8 units as UK
Also, you pack more punch onto a TRN with 1 Inf 1 Arm
Also, with 1 Inf 1 Arm you have more “skew” - when you lose a unit, you only lose 1 punch of your 4 total oPunch. With Inf/Art, you lose a unit, you lose 2 oPunch.
And as switch noted, Artillery on defence are no better than Inf.

Here’s the change I would make to Artillery: allow them to support the attack without moving from their home base. This would make them like a poor man’s Fighter for trading territories. So you send a few Inf ahead to attack, but your Art can stay behind in Mos or whatever.

[Axis4life]

Art is an asset when you build a lot of INF and are pressing an attack.  They are a solid purchase for Germany for sure and the UK.  Russia has limited use for ART.  After the first few rounds Russia is generally think of ways to stave off the incoming attacks, so why would you spend and extra IPC for a piece that offers no defensive advantage.  So I guess I would say that ART are worth it if you are pressing attack, not so much for defending the homefront.

[frood]

Here’s another thought that would see me buying Art and Arm in more equal numbers:

Allow Art to move 2 spaces, but without the blitzing ability of tanks. So they can get to the front more quickly.

[ezto]

My ratio of art to inf is 1/15. arm seems to hit much more often. Now in lowluck its whole different story…

[Weekend Gamer]

@Axis4life:

Art is an asset when you build a lot of INF and are pressing an attack.  They are a solid purchase for Germany for sure and the UK.  Russia has limited use for ART.  After the first few rounds Russia is generally think of ways to stave off the incoming attacks, so why would you spend and extra IPC for a piece that offers no defensive advantage.  So I guess I would say that ART are worth it if you are pressing attack, not so much for defending the homefront.

I have to disagree with this assessment somewhat.  Because Russia has limited air power, I find it is useful for Russia to have a few artillery to deploy because it increases my odds of killing German (or Japanese) troops with minimal commitment of forces on my part.  So, for example, if I attack Ukraine (with 2 German defenders) with 2 infantry and 1 fighter, my odds of taking Ukraine are only 58% versus nearly 70% (69.65% to be exact) if I attack with 1 infantry, 1 artillery and 1 fighter.  That extra almost 12% odds means greater odds of taking the territory from Germany, gaining an extra 3 bucks in income and forcing the Krauts to take it back (with a 1 in 3 chance of killing another Kraut in the exchange).  In any case, I would much rather lose 7 bucks worth of units trying to take a territory, even if not successful, than losing 8 bucks worth of units, especially when Russia needs those tanks later on for the defense of Moscow.  I always buy tanks early and in later rounds.  But in the middle rounds, artillery can be a good purchase for Russia, IMO.

[Magister]

Arty is a good offensive boost where one does not need the speed of tanks, and there is already plenty of infantry.
For the price of ‘upgrading’ one inf to a tank, one can upgrade 2 inf to 2 arty.

say 10 inf 6 arty are much better than 13 inf 3 tnk.

Practically, a great use is the threatening position in Novosibirsk: inf and many arty, with tanks and fighters back in Moscow. May make it difficult for Japan even to come close. Much better than just a defensive position waiting to die.

But for a final defense (say Germany) 1inf 1tnk are better than 2arty. The extra cost is wasted.

[frood]

Keep in mind though that 1 Inf 1 Tnk are still a better combo offensively, even if tanks were not faster. The reason is that the tank adds “skew”.

1 Inf 1 Arm will tend to do better than 1 Inf 1 Art because the 1 Inf 1 Arm force can take a hit and still have a punch of 3 remaining. With the Inf/Art combo, you lose 2 punch with each casualty instead of just 1.

[Guest]

The INF/ART combo loses most of its benefits in a large battle if there are insufficient unsupported IN present to absorb hits.  Otherwise, you are losing 2’s on attack instead of 1’s when you lose INF.

I think Darth posted that a 3:1 ratio is pretty solid for making ART worthwhile…

[Imperious Leader]

I love to add Art to the game. Usually i play Wagner in the background specifically “entrance of the gods” it enhances my thoughts like classical music is supposed to do. Studies show that classical music enhances creative ideas and thoughts.

[newpaintbrush]

@Imperious:

I love to add Art to the game. Usually i play Wagner in the background specifically “entrance of the gods” it enhances my thoughts like classical music is supposed to do. Studies show that classical music enhances creative ideas and thoughts.

Studies show that drugz0rz also enhance creative ideas and thoughts.

I like classical music too.  So does Hannibal Lecter.

Mmm.  Long pork.

[DarthMaximus]

@ncscswitch:

The INF/ART combo loses most of its benefits in a large battle if there are insufficient unsupported IN present to absorb hits.  Otherwise, you are losing 2’s on attack instead of 1’s when you lose INF.

I think Darth posted that a 3:1 ratio is pretty solid for making ART worthwhile…

Yeah, it was somewhere between 3:1:1 and 4:1:1, for larger stacks (15-20 units+)  But that is purely on economics for BOTH Off and Def and what is the cheapest way to get a good offensive and defensive stack simultaneously.  It ignores the tanks ability to move two, any ftrs/boms you may have, and other units already on the board.

I tend to go more armor heavy due to the mobility but I do like to always try and have about 2-6 rt and will buy if I have that extra IPC to upgrade an inf.

[OneShot187]

What do you use for amphibious assaults on islands that have 2Inf?  1Inf+1Art or 1Inf+1Arm?

Does what you take there depend on if you can spare a BB for bombardment or spare a Fig to take there as well?

Once you land if you use the 1Inf+1Arm tactic, then you might end up with just 1Arm stranded on an island that has a move of 2.

Do you find yourself taking Arm with mainland amphibious assault and Art to island ones or does it not affect the way you try and do this.

[DarthMaximus]

Typically with island hopping or that type of Amphib assualt, I will just use 2 inf and planes.  Since this most likely will be Japan or the US, you’re right you’ll have possibly 1 or 2 BB’s and if you don’t have that you should have a carrier with 2 ftrs.  It just isn’t safe to have an unprotected trns.  So I’d use 2 inf, 2 ftrs (with bb-shot, possibly bom as well).

[Imperious Leader]

drugz0rz

what is this?

[NoMercy]

What Artillery does is helps you also trade those pesky territorities you don’t have enough Planes to cover for.
no more of the days of 3Inf vs 1Inf or 2 Inf, 1 Arm vs 1 Inf!  Bring that 2 Inf, 1 RTL to smash that 1 Inf.

Example Russia will be trading Karelia/Belo/UKR before the UK/US can jump in, you don’t have 3 planes unless you buy a extra one and 2 Inf, 1 Fgts vs 1 Inf is in your favor but tends to be risky I find.

The Germans have the advantage here in that they can ussually do 2 Inf, 2 fgts vs 1 Inf…

I would never have more then 5 RTL in a advance force going torwards a capital. (tanks are where it’s at.)

my ratios of units are very different then everybody elses ratios…Everybody has different strategies etc…

I almost make or get as many tanks as I have infantry, Tanks can punish opponents into submission and just don’t give a Opponent a break if they are mostly a Infantry force…

[newpaintbrush]

@Imperious:

drugz0rz

what is this?

Excellent question, my friend.

It’s what you get when you add “0rz” to the end of a word, like “questionz0rz”.

I do not actually advocate recreational use of illegal or illicit substances, of course.

Therpeutic use, however, is quite different.  My, I seem to have come down with a rather severe case of glaucoma, you know.

Lol.

–

NoMercy’s on with the artillery substitute for air, particularly for Russia.  I’ll add to his description, though - generally, as he said, but if you’re deadlocked and have adjacent industrial complexes, I’ll tend to build a hella lotta artillery and keep on strafing; building infantry to replace those lost on the strafe.  What’s “hella lot”?  As many as I think feasible, which means as many as 1 per 1.5 or even 1 infantry.  But deadlocks are rare, someone usually gets the swing sooner rather than later.

As for getting islands - by the time I start hitting islands with the US, I typically have 4-6 fighters and a bomber.  I just blast whatever’s on the island with mass fighters and a few fodder infantry.  If your fleet is pretty secure, and you have a couple of transports (i.e. you can unload 3 inf 1 tank 2 fighters on an island with only 2 inf), then tanks are worth carrying along as well; you want to maximize your hitting power once your transports start going from the islands to the mainland, and your opponent might have some AA guns on the mainland that your fighters would find inconvenient.

[Sir Doodlebug]

I like the addition of a new land unit, but dislike the idea of artillery as a seperate unit. You can have Inf and Amored divisions, which can have artillery elements, but artillery never existed as a stand alone division.

If a new land unit needed to be added I would have preferred it to be Mechanised Inf. Inf that can keep up with Amor and deliver a stronger attack than normal inf.

Overall I would rather have Art than not.