Concerns and Balance Problems with 42.2

[taamvan]

Very true, Black Elk.

At Gencon, Tirano and I discussed the effect of using any bid (X bid amount/3 = infantry on paris at game start), then contrasted that with the opposite approach (X bid amount/destroyers battleships or fighters on Scotland/111/110/109 etc that would dissuade a German attack and save a fleet)

These two approaches revealed the careful balance of the German opener, some small (UK figher on Scotland) can slightly alter the balance of all the attacks being made simultaneously, whereas certain amounts tend to distort or dissuade the traditional opener entirely.

Different pieces operate differently at different times and in different games;  one example is that mechs are far stronger than infantry in global and either artillery or mech is probably a better buy for $1, but since mechs are not available in 42.2, infantry is all you have.

It is a common refrain at public games that bidding and tech (and interception and closed dardanelles) are ALL house rules.  Economic victory is also a house rule.

However, some changes are suggested that are essentially neutral. For example, YG adds UK-P to ANZAC, I like the idea of taking Canada’s economy, factory and pieces and moving them from UK-E to ANZAC, or permitting the player to choose 1) traditional UK 2) ANZAC Pacific as per YG or 3) Dominion ANZAC at the beginning of the game, kinda a player’s choice model.  Then again, many house rules seem to address non-problematic rules or alter/add pieces/bases to the setup in a way that can’t really be assessed, so when people are committing to a 10 hour game, they don’t want to be facing hordes of unknowns.

Lots of people like the idea of making it random, or at least not player choice.  Maybe a stronger compromise than any of these is to just add Russian income or Russian at-war-NOs (aka balmod).

[Black_Elk]

Yeah I feel you man! Too true

To go back to the nuts and bolts for a sec, just thought I’d chime in on the British fleet question.
For an Atlantic crossing set up, I enjoy something like the following…

Round 1:
UK buys 2 fighters setting up the transit to W. Russia or Arch (and then India) in the following rounds. 3 hitpoints built for India factory.
US buys 1 carrier, 1 destroyer, 2 transports and 1 sub to recover their Atlantic position.

Round 2:
UK repeats first round buy, and basically does the same.
US buys 1 carrier, 1 fighter, 1 transport, 1 destroyer.

Round 3:
UK builds 3 hitpoints in India, saves the rest for round 4 purchase.
US buys 2 fighters, and as much ground as they can afford. All available Anglo-American naval units should by this time be able to safely, converge off Africa, in range of UK for the following round.

Round 4:
UK drops a double carrier fleet with the second deck to be supported by US fighters. (You can try alternatives depending on whether the sz 35, or pearl carrier is still afloat to converge, but the goal is an Atlantic fleet with at least 4 carriers.) They don’t need to be fully stacked with fighters immediately, as long as you have sufficient defense to deter an airstrike, or room for the full 8 fighters should you need them. It can actually sometimes be advantageous to have a landing spot open for UK fighter flexibility or emergency escapes from Russia.

US from this point focuses primarily on purchasing transports, ground and aircraft. Moves the Atlantic fleet to support the British naval defense, while the transports go to sz 10 (or sz 1, if 10 is threatened by Axis bombers). All north American ground to Eastern Canada, to set up a repeating launch on either Africa or the North. From here on the goal is to build tandem transport fleets, capable of delivering as many ground units as possible across the pond. The ideal is building towards a dozen total transports  (6 to launch, and 6 to return) capable of dropping 12 US ground each round. Basically 12 inf, if you can maintain 36 ipcs on income. As soon as it’s feasible you want the whole fleet up north, first Norway, then Finland every round until you can move on Karelia, with the British backing them up each time. The principle objective is to stack Baltic States or France, with a line on Berlin (and hopefully prevent a premature Moscow collapse by diverting Germany, so the Russian killing role falls to Japan alone.)

This is a painfully long and narrowly focused KGF set up for the Allies, which means Japan is almost certainly running the board. With any luck, you got enough ground out of India before abandoning it to make the Moscow battle a bloody affair for Japan, but in the end you’re hoping to trade a Japanese Moscow, for an American Berlin, at which point the balance resets with an insurmountable Allied advantage.

With a 4 carrier Atlantic fleet, it’s very hard for the Axis to build up sufficient bombers to challenge you, as long as you can keep it out of Axis fighter range. For their part, Axis will be hard pressed to retain fighter defense on Karelia and Berlin at the same time, while simultaneously threatening Moscow. At some point Germany will make a bold move on the center or south, or withdraw to protect the fatherland, ceding the North, and that’s when you want to crack Karelia. In the lead up to this I would try to avoid trading too much territory with American units unless you really need to block an Axis air landing. Better to stack the American ground so you can build for a back-to-back drop that will actually make a difference (e.g. 24 hitpoints, using all the transports at once for a key drop, with another dozen or more hitpoints at the ready for an immediate follow up. This is way better than taking France or Northwestern for a one round income boost, losing the dudes, and then back to being 2 turns out of position.) This is particulary true when setting up the final stack drop as a precursor to the amphibious assault on Berlin out of sz 5, since your transports will then be committed and unable to return to North America for more troops.

Whether any of this is achievable short of an early Axis setback somewhere, or a crushing and consistent bombing campaign against G, is where the whole bid discussion comes in, but I think that’s probably the cleanest route to Allied victory on this map. The alternative of stalling Japan and redirecting after, or just gunning for Tokyo is much harder, mainly because it’s so hard to cover the center against a full press by G under those conditions. Even if KJF is always more entertaining, it’s dicey, and doesn’t result in the same kind of overwhelming advantage that a Berlin kill affords.

[CrayzKirk]

I’ve been lurking in this thread really hoping someone is going to figure out how to make this game more fun.  One of the big issues, to me, is that Russia and Britain are simply in survival mode hoping America will come to the rescue.  Buying inf/art or inf/arm as Russia, inf/art/fig as Britain every single time is just boring. Russia pretty much has no real fun value.  Sit in the middle and get squeezed while it watches its units and territories disappear.

My friends and I have always wondered why Russia even has AC/DD/BB units included as they are never purchased.

Maybe because of the hit point model, there just isn’t much that can be done.  I know submarines have been changed yet how is it that an infantry division can take down a bomber or fighter?  Or a bomber have a 66% chance of taking down a fighter?

I play real time strategy games, like Starcraft, which use a rock/paper/scissors model.  The problem is that the Axis are the rock and Allies are the scissors and just get pounded.

I like the KJF idea however Germany starts out so strong that Britain/Russia have trouble containing it.  One of the issues is that while the two Allied forces can be used to slow the advance, they offer no real combined counter as a stack of 10 Rus inf/5 Bri fig has no attack ability.  A combined attack would sure seem to help.

[Wolfshanze]

@craykirk:

My friends and I have always wondered why Russia even has AC/DD/BB units included as they are never purchased.

Not true… there’s a post around here somewhere about a guy that is so obsessed with purchasing naval units, that when in frustration, his friends made him play Russia so he’d stop buying naval units, the guy did the unthinkable and started building a Soviet Navy.

So there you have your answer… the reason why Russia even has AC/DD/BB units included is precisely because there’s always someone who will buy them.

Also, in the standard “KGF” strategy, where Berlin falls and people are playing a “last man standing” game of conquest, those Soviets might want a shot at Japan… and yeah, they’ll need a navy for that end-game.

[Black_Elk]

I don’t know that there are a whole lot of ways to address your concerns without substantial adjustments to the rules. There are many suggestions in the house rules section, but the issue with any HR is that it’s hard to persuade others to use it.

Map:
Adjusting the territory divisions on the map is the hardest, so I’ve moved away from that as a serious solution, though most issues in 1942.2 probably come down to the map itself.
Adjusting the territory connections on the map is possible (e.g. introducing an impassible border somewhere, or removing the wrap-around effect between the Europe side and the Pacific side) though again pretty hard to get people to adopt.
Adjusting the production/ipc values is possible, but requires some simple universal like +1 ipc production to every space that meets “such-and-such” requirement (e.g. all VCs get +X, or all starting factory territories get +X, or all Russian starting territories get +X.) If you don’t want a universal, but wish to modify each territory individually, then you need some sort of game marker/method of representation that makes all that easy to parse at a glance.
That is pretty tricky, so I’d set it aside as the least feasible way to adjust the game.

Income bonus:
This is in my view the simplest way to go, either through a universal bonus or specific objective bonuses, or simply by adjusting the starting cash of each nation.

Unit set up change:
Adjusting the position of starting units. This is basically what we are doing with a bid, but also possible to just make a hard set up alteration as many have discussed (i.e. add a Russian bomber, add an American destroyer, add/remove a factory somewhere etc.)

Unit roster:
Adjusting the costs, attack/defense, or abilities of the units. See Baron’s HR threads for a number of ideas.
I think this approach is particularly challenging getting people to adopt alterations to the roster, but probably has the most potential for a major overhaul.

One-Off rules:
These could be things like the National Advantages from Revised that offer some kind of limited bonus at a specific point in the game, Russian Winter, D-Day etc. Or an HR with narrow applications, like allowing players to destroy factories, or provide lend-lease etc.

Turn Order:
I think this method is particularly promising, though I haven’t seen many people explore it. Like playing AA50/Global where China moves first in the turn order sequence, randomizing the turn order sequence, or things of that nature. For example, playing 1942.2 with the following turn order…
USA > Russia > Germany > UK > Japan.

But it’s just very hard to achieve a critical mass with solutions like these, such that they become popular enough to serve as viable balancing solutions.

As for myself, I enjoy the vanilla map, even if the Allies are rather pigeon holed. I definitely see what you mean though. I still prefer AA50 over pretty much anything else. It was the best A&A game since Classic. I preferred it to Revised, and definitely prefer it to 1941 or 1942.2. Global is a rather different beast, the rules overhead on that one makes for a challenging comparison with the smaller scale maps. As a successor to Revised 1942.2 is passing fair, but I wish there was more to it. At least AA50 had an alternative start date to explore when you got bored, and a tech chart. I think we could have used some optional official rules for 1942.2 beyond just sz 16 and the intercept rules to keep it going, since I don’t know when we’ll see another A&A map at this scale, if ever. For now, if you want to re-balance it, you basically have to get creative on your own, and then find some friends who are willing to come along for the ride.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Wolfshanze:

@craykirk:

My friends and I have always wondered why Russia even has AC/DD/BB units included as they are never purchased.

Not true… there’s a post around here somewhere about a guy that is so obsessed with purchasing naval units, that when in frustration, his friends made him play Russia so he’d stop buying naval units, the guy did the unthinkable and started building a Soviet Navy.

So there you have your answer… the reason why Russia even has AC/DD/BB units included is precisely because there’s always someone who will buy them.

Also, in the standard “KGF” strategy, where Berlin falls and people are playing a “last man standing” game of conquest, those Soviets might want a shot at Japan… and yeah, they’ll need a navy for that end-game.

I played an AA50 game with reduced cost structure (SS5-DD6-CA9-CV12-BB16) and Convoy Zones, and a few set-up additions (to protect Convoy Zones), such as a 1 russian DD in Soviet Far East cost (Amur/Buryatia).
German’s Subs were such a nuisance in northern arctic sea that USSR bought 1 DD to get ride of a few (with air support).
In HR game intended to increase naval movement and dynamics, and enough IPCs it is possible to increase russian navy in a more interesting way. But I have to admit that without plaguing Russian Convoy SZ (a HR mechanic which I also use in 1942.2), there was no need for such navy.

The OOB naval cost structure is clearly a time factor on Germany. More allieds ships, means more units to deal with and less ground units for Russia invasion. At a point, Germany cannot afford to play on both sides.
Changing hypothetically to SS8 DD10 CA14 CV20 BB24, would make more room to Germany before dealing with Operation Overlord in Western Europe.

I believe that reducing ship cost (somehow like Advanced Shipyard Tech), is a balancing option (helping 2 allies vs 1 axis, mostly USA, UK and Japan) which should be explored compared to bids, because it have a lasting effect with purchase opportunity and provide pace changing too. Do you agree on that point?

[baron Münchhausen]

@craykirk:

I’ve been lurking in this thread really hoping someone is going to figure out how to make this game more fun.  One of the big issues, to me, is that Russia and Britain are simply in survival mode hoping America will come to the rescue.  Buying inf/art or inf/arm as Russia, inf/art/fig as Britain every single time is just boring. Russia pretty much has no real fun value.  Sit in the middle and get squeezed while it watches its units and territories disappear.

My friends and I have always wondered why Russia even has AC/DD/BB units included as they are never purchased.

Maybe because of the hit point model, there just isn’t much that can be done.  I know submarines have been changed yet how is it that an infantry division can take down a bomber or fighter?  Or a bomber have a 66% chance of taking down a fighter?

I play real time strategy games, like Starcraft, which use a rock/paper/scissors model.  The problem is that the Axis are the rock and Allies are the scissors and just get pounded.

I like the KJF idea however Germany starts out so strong that Britain/Russia have trouble containing it.  One of the issues is that while the two Allied forces can be used to slow the advance, they offer no real combined counter as a stack of 10 Rus inf/5 Bri fig has no attack ability.  A combined attack would sure seem to help.

@Black_Elk:

Unit roster:
Adjusting the costs, attack/defense, or abilities of the units. See Baron’s HR threads for a number of ideas.
I think this approach is particularly challenging getting people to adopt alterations to the roster, but probably has the most potential for a major overhaul.

On air units and combat interactions I developed two different Fg-TcB-StB dynamics, one of which I’m fond of and is actually tried by SS on G40. He said that Fg seems less the decisive element it was in OOB game. Fgs are hitting planes first each combat round, so StBs needs Fgs fodder or become toasted if too many combat rounds.

I use TcB in my 1942.2 game, it provides more options and with my HR allows russia to start with 1 TcB.

[Black_Elk]

And of course, once you open the game up for HR modifications, there is an additional challenge of how far to push things before you enter the arena of a full redesign. I don’t want to derail the thread with house rules discussions, but since I already brought up bid alternatives, I just want to expand on one that I find fun for 42.2
:-D

I can say this much, I’ve tried a number of different HRs, and the turn order change that I mentioned earlier (with USA going first), is probably my favorite for a hard-and-fast, grab-and-go tweak. The reason I think it’s successful, is that it doesn’t require your players to do much. They don’t have to learn anything new, there are no adjustments to the unit placements or the rules that need to be defended, after the first turn the sequence is exactly the same as OOB.

USA, Russia, Germany, UK, Japan

Keeps the same essential framework, with the exact same unit and income set up out of the box, but provides an entirely new opening round. New strategies and a new overall balance, which I find to be more grounded given the timeline. The only thing different, is that the US starts the turn sequence. Here’s what it does that I like…

Provides the Allies/Americans a very substantial economic boost, with a first round purchase at 42 ipcs and the potential to collect the same (or slightly more) on income in the first round.

Preserves the American fleet at Pearl (more historical), while providing a way to get some early shock operations going against Japan, like a move to Solomon Islands Guadalcanal (again more historical). Also bolsters China, allowing these forces to consolidate for defense, or attempt an early attack, like at Kwang. These two, combined with some focused Russian/UK openers, can set up a viable KJF Pacific game that has the potential to actually pan out.

Saves the American Atlantic transports, and allows the Americans a shot to clear sz 9 of u-boats (using their DD +Bomber) to do the same for the British transports in sz 10.

It addresses two main issues I have with the vanilla game, namely that the Americans are too broke/slow out the gate, and that Allied naval forces are all wiped by Axis air before they have a chance to do anything. Also, by allowing the Americans to move first (esp. in China) it is easier to reinforce the center for a better shot at holding it against an early crush.

Using this turn order, which provides a much stronger Allied opener than any bid I can think of, effectively inverts the game to a more Classic/Revised style of play = Allied advantage.

If further balancing is required, this can be achieved by a more traditional bid for Axis, which harkens back to the original situation in Classic/Revised. Though I find that the Axis position and production spread is still quite strong, and the balance by theater is pretty enjoyable.

For those who think the OOB game is reasonably balanced this may seem overly generous to the Allies, but that is not my view. For me “balance” goes beyond just whether it’s possible for the Allies to carve out a narrow win, (or possible with a large bid), and should also consider whether the resulting gameplay is dynamic and appropriate to the start date. Including whether the game can be resolved in an expeditious and satisfying way for both the Axis and the Allies. If you want the game to play more like World War II, and be more interesting for each side, try it with the USA going first.

This adjustment has the benefit of being very simple to explain and to implement. Probably the best I can offer for a quick fix.

ps. here is a tripleA gamesave below (using edit mode), for anyone who’d like to try it…

1942 sec ed USA starts.tsvg

[taamvan]

Its a great suggestion.

agree balance doesn’t just mean an equal chance of victory, it also means an equal chance at variety, creativity and having fun.  As this discussion began, the game is already pretty fun to play, even when you lose.  It is frustrating to see the game setup include a bunch of units that exist just to be blown up, but Global does this to an entire team.  It is odd that several of the units seem OP or useless, but that’s probably inevitable as you add more than a basic number of variations to a d6 based system.

So, there is a game (G36/Globalwar) that addresses all these challenges and creates a new one;  the game is already overly complex and plodding even though it seems pretty stripped down for a world-scope wargame.  GW adds d12 and every possible unit …but it strikes me as overload.

Still, the interest is there as the makers of that game do not seemed to have overlooked key aspects of game creation that make 2010 era wargames feel much more playable and rich than 1960s or 1990s era ones…and AxA feels like it represents an older conception of design and play.  the biggest problem with GW is that it doesn’t appear to be “less is more” it appears to have an approach of “make rules for everything conceivable then integrate them relentlessly until the game is so complex it is unplayable”

The only games that get around this dilemma are ones that sacrifice realism and scope for playability and variety (such as Memoir 44)

[baron Münchhausen]

This sequence seems very interesting: USA Round 0, Russia R1, Germany R1, UK R1, Japan R1, USA R1.

I just believe it is a bit too much a sweep.
Once upon in classic time, when it was Axis broken one tweek was to simply not allow Russia to attack at all. Only purchase,  Non Combat Move and reinforcement with new units.

IMO, USA first Round 0 should receive the same treatment: no combat phase allowed, keeping purchase, non-combat move and place new units.
This keeps Axis units intact and let Japan not to be too early overwhelmed in a KJF strategy, but it reduces a lot of the initial impact of the first game round on US units attrition in China, Hawaiian SZ and East Coast SZ.
And this can still be an acceptable historical “Awakening of the Giant”, before launching the first assault after Japan played.

Preserves the American fleet at Pearl (more historical), while providing a way to get some early shock operations going against Japan, like a move to Solomon Islands Guadalcanal (again more historical). Also bolsters China, allowing these forces to consolidate for defense, or attempt an early attack, like at Kwang. These two, combined with some focused Russian/UK openers, can set up a viable KJF Pacific game that has the potential to actually pan out.

USA first Combat Move on Round 1 still allows these historical moves and can even launch 1 Fg (from Hawaiian SZ) and 1 StB in Soviet Far East (from Eastern Coast) on USA Round 0 to be use in China to counter Japan with remaining US (Chinese) Infantry units and the lone Flying Tiger.

Interesting twist?

[Argothair]

That could also work really well, Baron! I think if your primary concern is making sure that the US / UK boats don’t get blown up uselessly on turn 1, then letting the USA take a noncombat/purchase turn before the usual start of the game is an elegant and effective solution. It also reduces taamvan’s “juggling plates” problem; the Flying Tigers are safe, and so that frees up the troops that would otherwise have been sent to guard Szechuan, which gives the Allies more options and more breathing room. I’m not sure China will have any viable attacks in most games – even attacking Kwangtung with 6 inf, 1 ftr on round 0 is not that profitable, because Manchuria can counter attack on J1 with 4 inf from Kiangsu and 4 fighters or so, even without using a transport – so you’re trading 6 Chinese infantry for something like 3 inf, 1 art from Japan and 2 IPCs of American income. Still, I suppose if you consolidate the Chinese forces on A0, and then Japan ignores the Chinese front on J1, then on A1 or A2 you might have a decent attack somewhere.

I had an idea for how to give the Russians a navy:
(1) Open the Dardenelles
(2) Move the Karelia factory to Archangel
(3) Add a factory in the Soviet Far East
(4) Put 3 Soviet fleets on the board at setup. Each fleet is a cruiser, a transport, and a sub. The fleets go in SZ 4 (Archangel), SZ 16 (Caucasus), and SZ 60 (Soviet Far East).

The reason why I suggest moving the factories and opening the Turkish straits is that the key benefit of a navy is that it gives you extra mobility, i.e, more mobility than you could get with infantry alone. It compels your opponent to defend more territories than they would otherwise have to worry about, especially if they know that you’re not in a position to use brute force to break through your front lines. The problem with the OOB 1942.2 map for Russian navies is that the Russians have nowhere to go – Karelia is right next to Finland anyway, and it’s not worth building (or protecting) a navy just to get from Karelia to Norway. So if you move the factory back one space, now the navy is forcing Germany to protect Norway, Finland, and Karelia against a White Sea fleet shipping infantry out of Archangel. It might also incentivize the Germans to reinforce their Baltic navy! When the Germans can rely on capturing the Karelia factory, the Karelia factory becomes the main source of infantry fodder for the Germans’ eastern front – but with no Karelia factory, the Germans need a transport in the Baltic to ship over cheap infantry to die on the front lines, so that they aren’t losing tanks on every battle.

The Russian Black Sea fleet will probably be sunk on G1 most games, but it gives Germany some hard choices – do you use the BB to help sink the Russian fleet or the British fleet? You’ll be exposed to fighter casualties somewhere, and you’ll have fewer fighters to attack on the land in eastern europe for G1 and possibly G2. Besides, the Russian Black Sea sub will survive, giving Russia the option to attack and kill the German BB on R2 if Russia parks its fighters in the Caucasus or even in Egypt.

The Russian Pacific fleet has the option of sinking the Japanese transport (freeing up the British Indian fleet for other operations), of turtling to protect the Soviet Far East factory/stack against bombardments, to give the Japanese a headache when invading Siberia, or even of heading east to Canada for a turn so that it can link up with the American fleet on R2, helping the Americans to get more value out of a counter-attack after Pearl Harbor (because the Japanese counter-counter-attack will be much less profitable thanks to the extra Russian boats!

[baron Münchhausen]

@Black_Elk:

It addresses two main issues I have with the vanilla game, namely that the Americans are too broke/slow out the gate, and that Allied naval forces are all wiped by Axis air before they have a chance to do anything. Also, by allowing the Americans to move first (esp. in China) it is easier to reinforce the center for a better shot at holding it against an early crush.

For those who think the OOB game is reasonably balanced this may seem overly generous to the Allies, but that is not my view. For me “balance” goes beyond just whether it’s possible for the Allies to carve out a narrow win, (or possible with a large bid), and should also consider whether the resulting gameplay is dynamic and appropriate to the start date. Including whether the game can be resolved in an expeditious and satisfying way for both the Axis and the Allies. If you want the game to play more like World War II, and be more interesting for each side, try it with the USA going first.

I really agree that USA is far too slow entering the game. That’s why usually on a 4 players game, US and Russia are played by the same player. One stuck in close combat with only limited Infantry/Artillery/Tank purchase and another wide open purchase strategies but a lot of patience before taking real action.
A Round 0 built allows to gain a critical mass in Naval units, at least, if everything is purchase on one side to launch a substantial Naval Task Force US Round 1 or 2.

[Argothair]

What about the German navy? In the OOB 1942.2 game, German naval purchases are already a marginal tactic, since the Allies can afford to heavily dominate the Atlantic on 90%+ games. Letting the USA go first would further increase that domination, making German naval tactics even less viable.

Relatedly, I only see 2 ways for the USA to protect British boats on A0: send the starting Atlantic destroyer to Canada, and land an extra fighter on the British carrier in the Indian Ocean. That almost forces Germany into a scripted attack on the British BB and the 2 British boats in the Med, with remaining air power going to hit the Russians on land or to Egypt. So there are really only 2 viable tactics for Germany on the new G1, and by G2 Germany probably has zero boats in the water  in 97%+ of games. America builds an Atlantic carrier on A0, moves it to Morocco on A1, and hits any Italian boats with fighters on A2. Britain builds an Atlantic fleet on B1 with help from the Canadian DD + transport (which will always survive thanks to the extra American DD), and sinks anything in the Baltic on B1 or B2. Am I missing a German naval option? Or are we ok with a Germany that is restricted to land and air forces?

[baron Münchhausen]

@Argothair:

That could also work really well, Baron! I think if your primary concern is making sure that the US / UK boats don’t get blown up uselessly on turn 1, then letting the USA take a noncombat/purchase turn before the usual start of the game is an elegant and effective solution. It also reduces taamvan’s “juggling plates” problem; the Flying Tigers are safe, and so that frees up the troops that would otherwise have been sent to guard Szechuan, which gives the Allies more options and more breathing room. I’m not sure China will have any viable attacks in most games – even attacking Kwangtung with 6 inf, 1 ftr on round 0 is not that profitable, because Manchuria can counter attack on J1 with 4 inf from Kiangsu and 4 fighters or so, even without using a transport – so you’re trading 6 Chinese infantry for something like 3 inf, 1 art from Japan and 2 IPCs of American income. Still, I suppose if you consolidate the Chinese forces on A0, and then Japan ignores the Chinese front on J1, then on A1 or A2 you might have a decent attack somewhere.

I had an idea for how to give the Russians a navy:
(1) Open the Dardenelles
(2) Move the Karelia factory to Archangel
(3) Add a factory in the Soviet Far East
(4) Put 3 Soviet fleets on the board at setup. Each fleet is a cruiser, a transport, and a sub. The fleets go in SZ 4 (Archangel), SZ 16 (Caucasus), and SZ 60 (Soviet Far East).

The reason why I suggest moving the factories and opening the Turkish straits is that the key benefit of a navy is that it gives you extra mobility, i.e, more mobility than you could get with infantry alone. It compels your opponent to defend more territories than they would otherwise have to worry about, especially if they know that you’re not in a position to use brute force to break through your front lines. The problem with the OOB 1942.2 map for Russian navies is that the Russians have nowhere to go – Karelia is right next to Finland anyway, and it’s not worth building (or protecting) a navy just to get from Karelia to Norway. So if you move the factory back one space, now the navy is forcing Germany to protect Norway, Finland, and Karelia against a White Sea fleet shipping infantry out of Archangel. It might also incentivize the Germans to reinforce their Baltic navy! When the Germans can rely on capturing the Karelia factory, the Karelia factory becomes the main source of infantry fodder for the Germans’ eastern front – but with no Karelia factory, the Germans need a transport in the Baltic to ship over cheap infantry to die on the front lines, so that they aren’t losing tanks on every battle.

The Russian Black Sea fleet will probably be sunk on G1 most games, but it gives Germany some hard choices – do you use the BB to help sink the Russian fleet or the British fleet? You’ll be exposed to fighter casualties somewhere, and you’ll have fewer fighters to attack on the land in eastern europe for G1 and possibly G2. Besides, the Russian Black Sea sub will survive, giving Russia the option to attack and kill the German BB on R2 if Russia parks its fighters in the Caucasus or even in Egypt.

The Russian Pacific fleet has the option of sinking the Japanese transport (freeing up the British Indian fleet for other operations), of turtling to protect the Soviet Far East factory/stack against bombardments, to give the Japanese a headache when invading Siberia, or even of heading east to Canada for a turn so that it can link up with the American fleet on R2, helping the Americans to get more value out of a counter-attack after Pearl Harbor (because the Japanese counter-counter-attack will be much less profitable thanks to the extra Russian boats!

Adding that much units in set-up is a huge Allies bid.
Talking. I would keep the Karelian IC (for Germany, too needy) but adding Archangelsk IC 15$ with a TP 7$ and a Destroyer 8$, for  30$.
Adding Soviet Far East IC 15$ with a SS 6$ and CA 12$ seems enough, for 33$
Black Sea fleet would be funny, SS 6$, TP 7$ and CA 12$, for 25$
88 Russian additional IPCs on board would need some more Axis units in Med and Japanese SZ 60, at least.
A single additional Destroyer for Italy and Japan can be just enough.
And maybe one additional u-boat somewhere in North Atlantic SZ2 or SZ3 to deal with russian DD+TP+Sub in SZ 4 (or allows Russia to make a R1 anti-sub sweep against Germany, a rare opportunity!!!).

Also, to address:
@Argothair:

What about the German navy? In the OOB 1942.2 game, German naval purchases are already a marginal tactic, since the Allies can afford to heavily dominate the Atlantic on 90%+ games. Letting the USA go first would further increase that domination, making German naval tactics even less viable.
Relatedly, I only see 2 ways for the USA to protect British boats on A0: send the starting Atlantic destroyer to Canada, and land an extra fighter on the British carrier in the Indian Ocean. That almost forces Germany into a scripted attack on the British BB and the 2 British boats in the Med, with remaining air power going to hit the Russians on land or to Egypt. So there are really only 2 viable tactics for Germany on the new G1, and by G2 Germany probably has zero boats in the water  in 97%+ of games. America builds an Atlantic carrier on A0, moves it to Morocco on A1, and hits any Italian boats with fighters on A2. Britain builds an Atlantic fleet on B1 with help from the Canadian DD + transport (which will always survive thanks to the extra American DD), and sinks anything in the Baltic on B1 or B2. Am I missing a German naval option? Or are we ok with a Germany that is restricted to land and air forces?

I like to add another U-boat in SZ9 (with 2 other already there).
It makes for a more entertaining Battle of the Atlantic.

In a certain way, Russian 3 points naval set-up can be combined with USA R0 if a few Axis warships bids are added too.
The idea is to increase opening battle variability.
For instance, 1 German Destroyer in Baltic Sea, 2 U-boats: 1 in SZ2 and 1 in SZ9, 1 DD in Med SZ15 (combined to TP & BB).
Can incentive Germany to buy a few last u-boats to delay Allies.
Assuming that the ability to fire first with Submarines requires to keep a steady flow of U-boats (1 or 2) coming out of Baltic and sometimes from Med.

[Black_Elk]

A restricted opening for the US (following the same formula as Russia in Classic) seems entirely reasonable to me.

For those who played a lot of Classic, this solution should be familiar. A USA start in 42.2 would likely be improved (with less distortion or need for an Axis bid), if the US 0 turn skipped the combat phase.

Good call there.

This would give players at least some of what they want (a way to accelerate the pace of US entry in their chosen theater of focus, and a more realistic shot at an Allied win) without being too disruptive to the Axis in the process. It doesn’t really mess with the Russian opener, although it does give the Allies a way to put up another wall at the center (courtesy of the Chinese). It gives the UK a slight leg up (the flying tiger can reach Egypt for example, or the American Atlantic destroyer could help cover the British transport in sz10) but without giving the British a major bid breaking exploit vs the Germans in the Med or vs the Japanese in sz 35.

I think the main thing it does, from an historical satisfaction standpoint, is that it creates a bit more drama in the Pacific. Allowing for a potential dual front war as well, depending on how the US elects to use its starting forces, and what they choose to build. Instead of running around all over the place, expanding uncontested, Japan has to pay a bit more attention to the Americans and the Chinese (as seems appropriate for the history). This in turn alleviates some of the immediate pressure faced by Russia, which should help the overall balance in both theaters.

As to Germany’s naval ambitions, these are not really viable in the vanilla game as is, and the G1 script is more or less set OOB, so I don’t see this as all that different. Though again, for balance purposes, you can always return it to an Axis bid (which I suspect would be more reasonable, probably at the 6-10 Revised level.)

To me the best solution is generally the simplest. I think this one works, without too much overhead.
The question, as always, is can you get your friends to actually try it?
 :-D

Ps. More on the point about the German navy… Given that the start date occurs roughly two years after the Battle of Britain concluded, I don’t see a need to make early German naval expansion or the Sea Lion threat a huge priority. A beefed up Kreigsmarine in the Baltic, or Regia Marina in the Med, doesn’t really fit the timeline. So I think a German focus on ground + air is fine. Even if the dream of a massive German navy is everyone’s favorite Axis aspiration, I think its cool to leave that for the endgame.

[Argothair]

I’ll try it, Black Elk – come to San Francisco! :-)

I am not sure even a 10 point Axis bid would make any German naval strategies viable. In the OOB game, there is no viable path for the Germans to win the battle of the Atlantic unless the US goes 100% KJF and the British roll poorly, but the Germans can buy a destroyer, a carrier, a sub, or sometimes one of each and then be glad they did so. You yourself have written about how the occasional German naval purchases can seriously disrupt the Allies supply chain, Black Elk! I think with an A0 turn we would lose all that rich variety, and no German naval purchase whatsoever would ever be advisable. Maybe I’ll be proven wrong! I’ll offer an 11 point Axis bid and take the A0 noncombat advantage as Allies to any Axis player(s) in the SF Bay (or via e-mail) if you promise to build at least one German boat (any kind) on G1 or G2.

Although I guess the Baron’so idea to add a third sub in SZ 9 with the bid could work – you can sink the Canadian DD + transport with excellent odds. The question is, can you follow that up? Or is that still the kriegsmarine’s last hurrah, and you never build any boats ever again? My concern is that with an American CV + DD heading to North Atlantic on A1, it is trivially easy for British to build a viable fleet on B2 – whatever the British drop on B2 gets reinforced by CV, DD, 2 ftr on A2.

And, Baron, I think 2 or 3 Axis DDs and SSs to balance the extra Russian fleets would be just fine. I like your suggested locations. The huge IPC value of the Russian bid is very misleading, since nobody would ever waste money on a factory in the Soviet Far East or a cruiser in the Black Sea. 1-IPC factories and cruisers are the two most overpriced units in the game. I could go either way on the Karelia factory, and I like the idea of combining the Russian fleets with the A0 turn, although I worry that even with extra axis boats, it is way too strong for the allies.

I think you have to give the Russians a transport in all three fleets, or you lose variety. The Pacific transport lets you ferry Russian troops to Yunnan! That option makes me very happy. Perhaps others don’t quite share my joy…

[baron Münchhausen]

@Argothair:

I’ll try it, Black Elk – come to San Francisco! :-)

I am not sure even a 10 point Axis bid would make any German naval strategies viable. In the OOB game, there is no viable path for the Germans to win the battle of the Atlantic unless the US goes 100% KJF and the British roll poorly, but the Germans can buy a destroyer, a carrier, a sub, or sometimes one of each and then be glad they did so. You yourself have written about how the occasional German naval purchases can seriously disrupt the Allies supply chain, Black Elk! I think with an A0 turn we would lose all that rich variety, and no German naval purchase whatsoever would ever be advisable. Maybe I’ll be proven wrong! I’ll offer an 11 point Axis bid and take the A0 noncombat advantage as Allies to any Axis player(s) in the SF Bay (or via e-mail) if you promise to build at least one German boat (any kind) on G1 or G2.

Although I guess the Baron’so idea to add a third sub in SZ 9 with the bid could work – you can sink the Canadian DD + transport with excellent odds. The question is, can you follow that up? Or is that still the kriegsmarine’s last hurrah, and you never build any boats ever again?

And, Baron, I think 2 or 3 Axis DDs and SSs to balance the extra Russian fleets would be just fine. I like your suggested locations. The huge IPC value of the Russian bid is very misleading, since nobody would ever waste money on a factory in the Soviet Far East or a cruiser in the Black Sea. 1-IPC factories and cruisers are the two most overpriced units in the game. I could go either way on the Karelia factory, and I like the idea of combining the Russian fleets with the A0 turn, although I worry that even with extra axis boats, it is way too strong for the allies.

I think you have to give the Russians a transport in all three fleets, or you lose variety. The Pacific transport lets you ferry Russian troops to Yunnan! That option makes me very happy. Perhaps others don’t quite share my joy…

IMO, a German’s Naval built requires more incentive.
Incentive which I only find when I tried to put many US, UK and USSR Convoy SZs with 3 IPCs values. And a lower cost for Subs at 5 IPCs.
That way, sacrificing a few ground units (10 IPCs worth usually, 2 Subs), makes sense to prevent UK from building naval units or being under attack next Germany’s turn. And, if no Allies fleet in North Atlantic, a few SZs remained available to plague onto UK, USSR and US (last to plague).

In this kind of HouseRuled game, it remains a thin line between enough naval to keep initiative but not enough to invade and hold russian TTys.

I agree for the sake of more opening opportunities, it worth the effort to put one USSR TP in three SZs.

[Black_Elk]

Haha I live in Mountain View these days, but I wouldn’t rule out a mission up the Peninsula to give it a try. I miss the Outer Sunset sometimes, and my old fortress, but down here I got a garage for the folding tables.
:-D

So let’s just say that eventually the US start game is acknowledged to wind up Allied advantage, and the Axis player is looking for a bid. Say something like 10 for simplicity. How might it be used to the best effect?

My guess is that I still wouldn’t be trying to purchase surface ships with G with the starting cash, save maybe the blocker DD for the med, or spoiler DD for the Baltic, just to try and keep a transport alive into the second turn.

But an Axis bid for G, is something I haven’t considered much on this map. A transport on the bid could potentially make things interesting around the canal vs the British. 7 ipcs for a transport in sz 15, and 3 ipcs for 1 infantry unit in Libya?

That would give you nearly 70% odds on Egypt (even if the Allies sent the Flying Tiger and 1 Russian Yak for defense.)

Without the additional bid infantry unit, just the bid transport, the German shot on the canal is almost exactly 50/50.

If you get 11 ipcs on the bid, then changing the Libyan inf unit to an artillery piece gives you just shy of 80% vs the canal.

That’s actually not a bad swing for a narrow bid. For an equivilent cost you could have the old favorite 1 tank in Algeria, and 1 artillery in Libya, which gets you close to 60%, but the transport + inf is slightly better. (Again vs both the Tiger and the Yak, the bid situation might determine whether America or Russia brings these to the British defense.)

So I guess if the Axis calculated the canal was worth it, and bid a second med transport, there would be some incentive for a Med fleet. Who knows?

The German battleship is likely exposed to a US2 air hit, if nothing is done to protect it, and you know you’d want a fighter in the G1 attack on sz17 (if you bid vs the canal) so that might also be an incentive for a carrier buy in the Med. Another option is going after Caucasus with a second bid transport, in another narrow fight if 16 is open, which might factor into things for the Russian opener.

Hehe

Or other options might be similarly interesting, once you open the Pandora’s box of an Axis bid on this board. At any rate it feels like it might be fun for the Axis side too, even if the US start is Allied advantage, just as a change of pace. Let Axis play the bid for a change.
:-D

[Argothair]

Shucks, I didn’t know you were so close! I’ll come down to Mountain View…let me know what weekends you have free in February! My email is jasongreenlowe@gmail.com.

Interesting suggestions re: a second Med transport. Opening the straits might be just the trick to keep German naval dreams alive in an A0 game! If Germany bids a second Med transport with an open sz16, it pretty much forces an R1 Ukraine attack, and Russia will have to carefully reinforce the Caucasus. Even so, a G1 attack on Ukraine boosted by two loaded transports, followed up with a G2 attack on Caucasus boosted by two more loaded transports (protected by a G1 carrier buy) might force Russia to choose between Caucasus and West Russia on R2, although Egypt would be pretty safe in that opening. I like the possibilities!

Baron, how are you working your convoy zones? Same rules as G40, or something else? I worry that if we add Russian boats, add Axis boats, add an A0 turn, and add convoy zone rules, that now we have an entirely different game. I would want convoy rules to be as simple as possible, e.g. -2 IPCs per SZ adjacent to a factory with at least one sub in it.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Argothair:

Shucks, I didn’t know you were so close! I’ll come down to Mountain View…let me know what weekends you have free in February! My email is jasongreenlowe@gmail.com.

Interesting suggestions re: a second Med transport. Opening the straits might be just the trick to keep German naval dreams alive in an A0 game! If Germany bids a second Med transport with an open sz16, it pretty much forces an R1 Ukraine attack, and Russia will have to carefully reinforce the Caucasus. Even so, a G1 attack on Ukraine boosted by two loaded transports, followed up with a G2 attack on Caucasus boosted by two more loaded transports (protected by a G1 carrier buy) might force Russia to choose between Caucasus and West Russia on R2, although Egypt would be pretty safe in that opening. I like the possibilities!

Baron, how are you working your convoy zones? Same rules as G40, or something else? I worry that if we add Russian boats, add Axis boats, add an A0 turn, and add convoy zone rules, that now we have an entirely different game. I would want convoy rules to be as simple as possible, e.g. -2 IPCs per SZ adjacent to a factory with at least one sub in it.

Here is a revised version of my Convoy Disruption which is different and simpler than Global.
All damage are done on attacker’s turn within SBR phase instead of the defender’s collect income phase.

Baron’s Convoy Disruption House Rule 1942.2 OOB cost structure
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=39163.msg1618926#msg1618926
HTH
Baron