Holland Airbase before Sealion?

[Young Grasshopper]

One of my youtube subscribers has contemplated the following moves, I thought I would turn it over for discussion here… I will direct him to this thread. Thanks.

Any concerns you have to share regarding purchase and placement of an Airbase in Holland on G1.  I’m tired of losing the Bismark to UK bomber and fighter on UK1 when it almost always ends up as lone survivor in the Battle for the English Channel. Landing my fighters in Belgium with an Airbase to support a scramble on UK1 is “guaranteed” to deter UK from using its air units to destroy the GE BB, especially if I am threatening Sea Lion.  Of course, I cannot buy the Graf Zeplin CA if I buy the Airbase.  However, I don’t need it.  It’s better to have the FB combo in the battle for Yugo go on to land in S. Italy to further deter Taranto (aka Toronto :-).  That way, I also ensure 1 IT Ftr survives to do whatever in Rnd 2.  The other two units I thought good to buy up front were the U-boat and the DD, simply because I don’t like a pesky RAAF taking pot shots at my small burgeoning Sea Lion naval force.  Definitely looking at buying 5 Transports on Rnd 2 for the 6 transport amphibious on Scotland in Rnd 3….followed by land and amphib attack on London in Rnd 4.  All the while paying the tax to build an Atlantic Wall while moving artillery, new Tanks and Mech towards Russia for a simultaneous G4 Barbarrosa.   Whatever is on London will remain to defend until a one-time batch of 10 infantry can be planted there next turn never to be resupplied. On G5, I was thinking of splitting the transports into two groups, one with the bulk of the Deutsch Navy moving 3 to Gibraltar, the second moving 3 with escort and Luftwaffe directly into Leningrad with a simultaneous attack on land by the Barbarossa force that went into the Baltic States on G4.  If advisable, could you please comment on the buy I think is needed to make this happen:G2:  5x TT, 1x BF-109 Ftr (W. GE); 7x AR (Berlin)G3:  1x B; 1x AR, 2x IN (S. FR); 3x IN (Normandy); 3x W. GE; 2x TNK (Berlin)G4:  1x B, 1x IN (W. GE); 1x IC (Norway-for wall/protect NO); 1x TNK, 1x Mech, 1x IN (S. FR); 2x TNK, 1x Mech, 3x IN (Berlin); 3x IN (Normandy)G5:  1x B, 1x JU-87, 1x IN (W. GE); 1x TNK, 1x Mech, 1x IN (S. FR); 1x TNK, 1x Mech, 3x IN (Berlin); 1x TNK, 2x IN (Norway)G6:  1x JU-87; 1x ME-109, 3x IN (W. GE); 2x Mech, 1x IN (S. FR); 3x IN (Normandy); 3x IN (Norway); 1x TNK, 2x AR (Leningrad); 3x IN (Stalingrad)G7:  1x JU-87; 1x ME-109, 3x IN (W. GE); 1x TNK, 1x Mech, 1x IN (S. FR); 3x IN (Normandy); 3x IN (Norway); 1x TNK, 1x Mech, 1x AR (Leningrad); 1xAR, 2x IN (Stalingrad)

[Charles de Gaulle]

Landing in Soctland turn 3 is risky.  That’s 12 units (correct?) Versus a UK force of 12 infantry, 1 artillery, 1 mech., and 3 fighters approximately.  Probably not safe.

[WILD BILL]

@ShadowHAwk:

@Charles:

Landing in Soctland turn 3 is risky.  That’s 12 units (correct?) Versus a UK force of 12 infantry, 1 artillery, 1 mech., and 3 fighters approximately.  Probably not safe.

Actualy those odds are great for germany, UK attacks and moves all their forces off london, they can build like what 10 units there ( less after strat bombing )
Round 4 you just attack london with 12 units + air against those few units you easy get it.

Germany will not win schotland but will do major damage ( you could even move 1 AA gun there you might hit a plane as well )

Yea its all about a fairly weak UK counter attack (mostly inf) that will chew up UK inf that when dead don’t def London next turn. Maybe UK saw the possibility of the Scotland 2-step and built some art on UK1, but they will still lose some units.

As far as the AB on Holland G1 I would attempt a hit and run on sz111 with the “Bismark” and retreat it back to sz 112. Purchasing an AB for Holland is a one time benefit unless it also keeps your navy safe after the attack on London as well (is US in the war, and are they in position).  I would rather purchase a dd (or carrier) G1 so I won’t tie up planes covering a possible UK scramble forcing a sea battle when I amphib London.

Although it sounds good, I’m not sure you can pull off a Scotland 2-step and Barbarossa right after. That seems like a pretty lofty goal IMO (i think the German army will stall in Russia). Taking Gib on G5 may not be possible, because by then the US will be in the war. The US may very well already have their navy in sz91, and ground units on Gib US4, or be in position to attack your German navy/army on US5. Depends on what the allies do, but if they smell Sea Lion there is a good chance the US will be bulked up on the Euro side.

[Charles de Gaulle]

@ShadowHAwk:

@Charles:

Landing in Soctland turn 3 is risky.  That’s 12 units (correct?) Versus a UK force of 12 infantry, 1 artillery, 1 mech., and 3 fighters approximately.  Probably not safe.

Actualy those odds are great for germany, UK attacks and moves all their forces off london, they can build like what 10 units there ( less after strat bombing )
Round 4 you just attack london with 12 units + air against those few units you easy get it.

Germany will not win schotland but will do major damage ( you could even move 1 AA gun there you might hit a plane as well )

My bad.  For some silly reason I was calculating with the UK as defender.  :|

[freh]

Looking at the long-term impact, I’ve had a couple of Holland or Normandy Airbases at times for late game or situational defense. They can be useful, but making them useful requires fighters/tac to be stationed there and as a result they are too far away from the eastern front to provide necessary air or defense. As already pointed out, Russia will be a handful already – stationing air on the coast of the channel will make it that much harder imo.

[taamvan]

In the tourney, people were putting Airbases on Germany and North Italy–defensive ones to gain the 6 plane scramble.

The BB only needs to be risked in order to break the odds and gain advantage so that basically, you only have to lose subs and sea hits, not planes during your opener.  There is no reason to risk this unit, in general.  You are risking it to move your odds from 80% to 90%.  Considering how valuable it is in making the rest of your German Navy viable for the rest of the game (even without the added carrier), there is also no really good reason for making it fight alone at any point.

The Scotland attack is pretty good if you can force England into a situation where they cannot attack the Scottish stack AND continue in the defense of London, because there is a follow on force of Germans ready to counterattack.  Then, you can attack them from land and sea and that would be it.

The problem there is that you have to leave your German navy in a vulnerable position at least one time, and the UK (playing conservatively with plenty of fighters) should be able to kill it.  That means, no second round because the transports are at the bottom of the sea.

My general analysis is that you need at least 2 incremental reasons to rationally build an airbase (though the reasons could derive from the same situation on the same turn).  Those reasons could be reduced to a single scramble at some point during the game, one move of extra distance, or one situation where the implied threat deters an attack.  Only using it one time for one reason isn’t worth 15 unless it was life or death for your capital or fleet (such as building one on Denmark, korea etc)  Most situations you can find a reason to get to use an AB way more than 2+ times, if you can’t, then the carrier is way more flexible its basically a cheap pile of free soaked hits (like transports in the old game).

But the real reason I don’t like any of these plans that YG lays out is the “stranded transport” rule we keep discussing.  It is too easy for UK to drop a single destroyer into the channel zone, making it hostile.  The best reason to set up the Holland airbase wasn’t to defend the Graf Spee/Bismark it was to make a bridging block with the Germans so that they could hold the channel with a well defended fleet and bridge units directly across the channel without any reply.    This isn’t possible under the more correct interpretation of the rules that would force the transports back across SZ 112 to pick up their troops because it requires you to stage the units in Western Germany, not Normandy.  If all the units are in WG, then you have to move there to pick them up and there is no channel blocking in this manner.  By using blocking destroyers, the UK player could stop you from being able to load your transports in either square.  And no matter how you enforce this block or attempt the SZ/defense/takeover, if you cannot do it by UK4, you lost the game.

The hit and run idea is way better for those reasons…

[Charles de Gaulle]

Is buying an airbase for 15 IPCs worth it if you consider that you are saving a 20 IPC battleship? (Even though you may get a fighter with it usually)

[Kreuzfeld]

That BB really isn’t worth more than the 15 IPC you spend to save it.

[Charles de Gaulle]

I agree with both of you.  Therefore, is the Holland airbase going to do anything more later on to help Germany? If not, forget it.

[Teflon2017]

ALCON,
Finally got my account.  Thanks for all your comments and their resulting improvement to my TTPs, some reassuring but others challenging to contemplate.  I will double back on the J1 Attack on Pearl discussion when I have a chance.  For the G1 Attack discussion here, I must share my frustration at the thought of purchasing an AB in Holland just to save the Bismark (or Tirpitz take your pick). However, there is no option when using the BB to attack UK fleets that results in it surviving the UK1 F-B counter-attack. Even in SZ 111, if any U-boats survive, all of the Bombs and Torps are hitting the BB only. As you know, on G1, the Prince Eugen (or ADM Hipper) is in SZ114 and cannot make it to SZ111. So I guess I’m not getting the point about running back into the Baltic since that’s never going to be possible unless there is a timid or unexperienced UK player controlling the RAF.  Buying the AB in Holland enables 3x FTR scramble on UK1 F-B counter-attack and guarantees survival of the Battleship which is, however, highly useful as Task Force Core and for offshore Bombardment.  And, if UK is bold enough to attack even a crippled Bismark in SZ110 with a scramble, GM gets an opportunity prior to G2 to take out another chunk of the RAF prior to Op Sea Lion.

CDG and others are right in that the 15 IPCs could probably be better spent although two add’l uses I see for a Holland AB are the ability for Ftrs to hit SZ91 with out having to land at GIB (which Axis might not Cntrl) as well as ability to hit a US fleet trying to hide behind Scotland in SZ119 (must land in Norway).  One thing this discussion has made very clear to me is the danger of a surviving UK DD in SZ109 moving itself around Scotland and stopping in SZ112 and bringing a halt to transport movement on GM2 Sea Lion Attack. Obvious TTP to adopt is risking the Hipper Class CR and TT by NMC to SZ112 where the DD either has to do sea combat and is subsequently cleared out by a scramble from W. Germany.

Can someone ID the acronym IMO for me? (Intermediate Military Objective?) LOL

Respectfully,
Teflon

[Teflon2017]

OK, just found the previous forum discussion ref same topic.  Based on Wild Bill’s point about not destroying the fleet in SZ111, I see now that because a GM2 fleet in SZ112 can catch up to the UK BB in Iceland because W. GE has a Naval Base.  So, that one is dead on G2 anyway.  The means to use the BB and save it at the same time is the retreat strategy back into SZ112 after a debilitating attack on the UK Fleet.  This enables the 6 unit pounce onto Scotland on GM2 Attack with CA supporting the two add’l TTs.  More importantly, this BB retreat strategy enables me to place a bomber on the UK DD in SZ109 so it no longer exists to skirt around to perform a blocking role.  Wow, GE can even get a one-sub pot shot at the UK CR in SZ91 to help out Italy. Very nice indeed.

I’m rewriting my GE1 Attack Plan.

Many Thanks to all,
Teflon

[simon33]

@Teflon2017:

More importantly, this BB retreat strategy enables me to place a bomber on the UK DD in SZ109 so it no longer exists to skirt around to perform a blocking role.  Wow, GE can even get a one-sub pot shot at the UK CR in SZ91 to help out Italy. Very nice indeed.

I’m rewriting my GE1 Attack Plan.

Many Thanks to all,
Teflon

You might want to rethink this part. The UK can scramble up to 4 fighters to this combat, presuming that you go heavy enough on the other attacks, particularly SZ110 to sufficiently deter a scramble.

I agree with the BB retreat strategy though.

In Balanced Mod, a marine buy is pretty essential IMO even though I often forget it.
In vanilla with an allied bid, I’m starting to think a bid unit should include a fighter on Scotland.

[taamvan]

The allies can try to hide in 109 or 118 it doesn’t matter as bombers can reach both, so can unscreened ships.

It all ends up being a matter of “How many planes will (can) Germany lose?”  You can keep attacking the UK over and over but its a battle of attrition.

Keeping or buying a german sub every turn gives you at least the chance of stopping the Russian convoy from running; suppressing this is a big deal.

The hit+retreat move plus purchase carrier has so many advantages over the other proposals, assuming you get the rolls to do it.  Even if you fail to hit+retreat, the UK still has to kill the BB with planes + 1DD so that’s not the end of the world.  The conservative move is not to risk it at all bc its so valuable.

[Teflon2017]

Taamvan and Simon33,

(Break-Break….since both of you were so fast to respond, could you go back over to our tactical breakout in the J1 Attack forum discussion and see my question on maximizing use of Ftrs in conjuction with carrier NCMs?)

Copy on all.  I’m reassigning A/C to the ASB is SZ110 as a result of moving the BB to ASB in SZ111.  I’m also reassigning subs to attack all UK ships in the Atlantic, one on each SZ.  The UK DD in SZ109 will never make it as he has a sub and a fighter on him.  Most, not all, Allied players I’ve played resist the Scramble in order to turtle shell in London so I’ll take the risk in SZ110.

What assets in addition to the two U-boats do you use to take out the RU Fleet which is bottled up in the Baltic?  If Sea Lion, do you wait until G4 attack to do it?

Respectfully,
Tef

[WILD BILL]

Attacking sz109 w/sub and one ftr will get both of your units killed because he will scramble 3-4 ftrs. You will have one round of combat and may not kill the UK dd. If he scrambles and kills your sub and ftr, even if you did kill his dd, his tpt lives (you risk 16 IPCs to kill an 8 IPC dd).

The roll one round of battle and retreat option w/German BB on sz111 (Scotland) has become a favorite around here, but it doesn’t always work. You need to account for the UK one ftr scramble, but not hit it too hard winning the battle and stranding your BB in sz111 (this is the one time you are praying that all your dice don’t hit lol).

You can generally still kill the Brit BB (should be damaged) on G2 because for some unknown reason there isn’t a naval base on Scotland (hello Scapaflow?). So on UK1 the UK can’t repair the damaged BB, and it can only move 2 spaces. It will generally go to sz109 (for def scramble) or Iceland. In a rare case the UK might use it to attack your sz112 fleet (knowing you can scramble) depending on what you bought G1 (any navy).

Need to point out though that if there was a J1 attack and the US is in the war the allies can make Iceland a fairly safe place for the UK damaged BB. They can put a rainbow air force on Iceland and the US cruiser and what ever navy the UK has can join making it unlikely that the Germans hit it.

As a side note (as Germany) when you know there is going to be a J1 attack you might consider using one of your German subs to hit the US sz101 on G1. They have no DD (can’t scramble), so you have a good chance as any to kill the cruiser and tpt (I think that Shadowhawk brought this to my attention in the Pearl thread).

[Teflon2017]

Wild Bill,

Thanks again.  Copy on the SZ 109 attack.  Reassessing.

Important to kill that SOB DD there but won’t get a chance because Scramble will kill the sub prior to its standard SeaBattle attack.  However, if I redesignate the Holland Fighter to the SZ110 ASB, I am definitely going to want to retask the SZ109 sub to hit the CAN DD and TT.  If my opponent sends the UK BB up to Iceland, I will send the Condors up to Iceland with the CV. If the other battles go well, there may only be 1x US Ftr from East Coast and 1x UK DD with the BB at Iceland.  Will have to keep the 2x IN in Norway to secure the landing field.  If UK tucks the BB into SZ 109, I’ll launch the Amphib on Scotland from there, killing two birds with one stone on G2.  Definitely have to send 1x U-boat at the CA in SZ91 and one at the CA in SZ 101.  If I understand sneak attack correctly, I get to shoot twice at those cruisers before they can counter-attack.  First shot is the sneak attack (to which they don’t get to shoot back) and second shot is Std attack (could you briefly confirm I got this right?).

Here’s how I’ve laid out the NORLANT G1 ASB for GM Surface Navy and Luftwaffe:

U-Boats Attack (1ea):

• SZ101; SZ91; SZ106; SZ110 SZ111

ASB SZ111 (one round of combat):

• 1x BB; 1x FB (Stuka); 1x Ftr

ASB SZ110:

• 2x Bs (Condor); 3x Ftrs; 2x FBs

What do you think?

Tef

[WILD BILL]

@Teflon2017:

Wild Bill,

Thanks again.  Copy on the SZ 109 attack.  Reassessing.

Definitely have to send 1x U-boat at the CA in SZ91 and one at the CA in SZ 101.  If I understand sneak attack correctly, I get to shoot twice at those cruisers before they can counter-attack.  First shot is the sneak attack (to which they don’t get to shoot back) and second shot is Std attack (could you briefly confirm I got this right?).

Here’s how I’ve laid out the NORLANT G1 ASB for GM Surface Navy and Luftwaffe:

U-Boats Attack (1ea):

• SZ101; SZ91; SZ106; SZ110 SZ111

ASB SZ111 (one round of combat):

• 1x BB; 1x FB (Stuka); 1x Ftr

ASB SZ110:

• 2x Bs (Condor); 3x Ftrs; 2x FBs

What do you think?

Tef

Ok sneak attack doesn’t give you 2 shots

You would get a sneak attack anytime the enemy doesn’t have a dd in the battle.  Both attacking (roll of 2) and defending (roll of 1) subs get this option (or can submerge) when the other side doesn’t have a destroyer. So in the sz91 and sz101 battles you fire one shot (I call it a kill shot) and if you hit they are sunk and don’t fire back (would also kill US tpt in 101 under defenseless tpt rule once the cruiser is sunk). If you miss they get to return fire, and your sub would be killed if they hit.

Round 2 of battle:
If neither of you hit then you have two options. You can submerge (prob not), or continue the battle. Same thing happens round two, you fire a kill shot, and if you hit they are sunk and don’t return fire. If you miss they get to return fire……etc

Just to point out subs (attacking or defending) get a kill shot anytime the other side doesn’t have a dd in the battle. Say the defender starts out with one dd in the first round of battle, but takes it as a casualty. The next round any sub(s) you have remaining would get a sneak attack kill shot (or could submerge). It can get interesting in round 2-3 of a sea battle when the defender has to choose causalities between expensive ships and a destroyer when you still have a sub in the battle (def chooses casualties first).

Need to look at German sub set-up because I don’t think you can use a sub to hit sz110 if you attack both UK sz91 and the US in sz101 with a sub (there is usually a trade off). I believe you will end up with 2 subs in the sz111 battle unless you are feeling lucky and send in a lone sub into sz109 (you would basically get one shot to kill his dd because of probable scramble as discussed earlier).

[Teflon2017]

Wild Bill,

Thanks for the shout back. Know the basics about DDs screening for subs.  Was just wondering about the two shot thing as the rules almost make it look like Sneak Attack is a separate step of Conduct Combat (CC) phase.  But, basically, as you say, Sneak Attack only ensure no casualty shot from capital ships, cruisers or subs if they’ve been hit with the Kill Shot.

Thanks to you guys, will never waste a sub again in SZ109 on G1 Attack.  The one time I did it before, I think I was fortunate there was no scramble and thus didn’t learn me noth’n.

Looks to be no prob with getting down to east coast and Canada from starting positions.  Sub in SZ118 makes it to SZ101 in two.  Sub in SZ117 makes it to SZ106 in two.

Mahalo,
Tef

[Teflon2017]

Wild Bill,

One clarification on the Sneak Attack scenario.  If the attacking force in a sea battle has more than just subs, the defending non-DD warships don’t get to shoot back until the other attacking warships have fired first, correct?

V/r,
Tef

[WILD BILL]

@Teflon2017:

Wild Bill,

One clarification on the Sneak Attack scenario.  If the attacking force in a sea battle has more than just subs, the defending non-DD warships don’t get to shoot back until the other attacking warships have fired first, correct?

V/r,
Tef

I’m assuming “the defending non-dd warships” simply means the enemy has no dd in his fleet (otherwise there would be no sneak attack w/subs).

So the short answer is yes your other attacking units would fire before the defenders units once the general sea battle begins. Only eligible subs fire in the sneak attack step (see note below when both sides have eligible subs).

If there is no dd in the defending fleet your sub(s) would fire their kill shot in the special sneak attack step, and the defender chooses casualty(s). Those casualties are immediately removed (can’t return fire). Keep in mind that capital ships take 2 hits (damaged capital ships would get to fire in the general combat part of the sea battle). Plus remember that subs can’t hit planes.

After the sneak attack step is done, the general combat step of the sea battle starts. All your other ships/planes would fire, and def chooses his casualties (which get to return fire). Then the defender fires, and casualties from both sides are removed.

Then you continue round to 2 of the battle….which could also include a sneak attack step

*Note if the defender also has a sub eligible for sneak attack (you don’t have a dd either), his sub(s) would also fire in the sneak attack step (or submerge in which case it does not fire). Sneak attack subs from both sides are considered to fire simultaneously. So after you fire, the defender holds his casualties from your sub hits until his sub gets a chance to fire. Then hits from both sides are removed from play (don’t return fire). This would allow him to get his sneak attack shot off, and take a hit on his sub.

Attacking subs fire at “2”, defending subs fire at “1”