NO and their importance for strategy

I’d like to test something, so I was was wondering if anyone wanted to play a test game?

1 - I’d take the Allies with 3 ipc (1 extra UK inf on Egy) - I’d like to keep it as close to the original set-up as possible and what I want to test would probably be moot if Ger took Egy really heavy.

2 - I’d need someone who is confident in their Axis play.

3 - You’d have to do a “normal” G1.  By that I mean you can’t buy any ships on G1.  Use a standard opening.

4 - Regular dice, No Tech, Yes NOs.  No other optionals.

5 - It shouldn’t take very long to see what I want to test, so after 1-3 rds we can probably decide if the game is viable to play out longer.

I have two league games that will take priority but should still be able to do a turn a day and would like a similar pace.

It should be a fun test.

@Khobai:

India IC is fail. Period. Anyone who thinks the India IC works has obviously never seen Japan roll into India with 11 ground units and 6 fighters on Round 2.

Curious, what does Japan leave open/untouched on J1 to accomplish this?

Curious, what does Japan leave open/untouched on J1 to accomplish this?

Phillipines and Yunnan are typically skipped on round1. However it gives Japan unstoppable impetus when it comes to taking India/Persia/Transjordan/Egypt/etc… so I feel the tradeoff is well worth it. A strong southern push means Japanese ships can come through the suez on turn3 and japanese fighters can quickly reinforce france and italy to free up Germany’s units.

@Khobai:

Curious, what does Japan leave open/untouched on J1 to accomplish this?

Phillipines and Yunnan are typically skipped on round1. However it gives Japan unstoppable impetus when it comes to taking India/Persia/Transjordan/Egypt/etc… so I feel the tradeoff is well worth it. A strong southern push means Japanese ships can come through the suez on turn3 and japanese fighters can quickly reinforce france and italy to free up Germany’s units.

IMHO, all that can be done while still taking out Yunnan J1

Just skip the Philiipines on J1.  Get it on J2.

Yeah you can still take Yunnan probably. But if you take Yunnan its less troops in India. It all depends how hard Japan wants to smack India.

Perhaps the greatest thing about not taking Phillipines round1 is that it gives the USA a false sense of confidence to go Pacific. Tricking the USA into going Pacific is a great way for Japan to take pressure off of Italy.

@cts17:

Holding India actually isn’t that difficult. I find absolutely NO difficulty in sending 4 Russian infantry south, with a 6 armour build in Russia to deadzone Karelia.

If Japan sends such a heavy force J1 stationed against India, I have 4 infantry in Caucasus that can move into Persia while the 4 there move into India, giving it a 9 land force advantage. A bid in Egypt usually allows the fighter landing there. While Japan will certainly take India J2, a R3 counterattack of 4 infantry and up to 10 armour leaves Japan in dire straits indeed, especially should they leave the Philippines behind, giving America a 55 IPC US2 buy.

You’re looking at 2 fully loaded CV, a Destroyer, a Battleship and a sub US1, and another loaded carrier and battleship turn 2. That’s 3 carriers, 2 battleships, and a destroyer set for sailing US3. If you’re commiting that much to India, I could even build a TP (prefered, actually) and start taking your NO’s away.

Assuming Germany is playing timidly… you might be able to do that with Russia.  If Germany pushes hard early (as she SHOULD), Russia is forced to deal with that threat, with little else extra to help elsewhere.

And don’t forget China is toasted J1. Japan can focus in India with chinamen annoying them, that’s like a cardhouse. Seriously, India has no hope with so much starting trannies

@Khobai:

Yeah you can still take Yunnan probably. But if you take Yunnan its less troops in India. It all depends how hard Japan wants to smack India.

Perhaps the greatest thing about not taking Phillipines round1 is that it gives the USA a false sense of confidence to go Pacific. Tricking the USA into going Pacific is a great way for Japan to take pressure off of Italy.

Actually the US can go toe to toe with Japan and do so quite effectively.  It obviously depends on what Germany does, but the US earning 48 a turn is enough to take J islands and make it worth it.

For the German part, as the US, you have to be very careful if Germany buys ships or air on G1, that means they’d contest the Atlantic, which means you need more US resources there.  But if Ger goes all land then that can open up more freedom for a potential full US Pac strat.

In some cases the US can move on Sol in Rd 2 but more likely it might be rd 3.  But once you hold Sol Sz you can start to create some real mischief.

Assuming the J player can’t read minds and buys either trns or an IC on J1, after US 1 the US can field a fleet that consistes of:
1 UK DD
1 UK trn (with 1 inf, 1 rt)
3 US DD (bought 2)
2 US AC with 4 ftrs (bought 1 ac + 1 ftr)
2 boms in Wcan (or Wus)

So that is 4 dd, 2 ac, 4 ftrs + 2 boms lingering and threatening Sz 62.
10 units (12 if count bombers)

Most likely J will have:
1 ca, 1 bb, 3 ac, 6 ftrs (+2 ftrs lingering) - J lost 1 ftr, 1 dd on J1.
11 units (13 if counting all ftrs, but some will probably be in Asia)

At this point it becomes a chess match on how/when/where to move as well as what to buy.  But it is definitely possible for the US to go after Japan.  Spotting them 55 more ipcs on Rd 2 (which should still be a good +12-15 adv over J2), the US can drop another loaded AC, 1 trn, 1 dd, 1 sub.

Did Japan spend all of its Rd 2 money on a fleet?  I’m not so sure it did.  They likely bought some land units for Asia.

Again this all depends on how confident you are in your ability to handle Ger/Ita with UK and Russia and only minimal US support.

The best open would pobably be if Russia can take Fin in Rd 1 and Nor Rd 2, then UK can concentrate on Alg in Rd 2 and 3 with minimal US support, so by rd 4 you can look to head back to sz 6, but you might have to wait until Rd 5, it just depends on what Ger is doing.  You can still sink the Italian fleet on UK 3 if you buy bombers on UK2 and you held Egy on G1.  So a bid to Egy is a good play here.

@DarthMaximus:

For the German part, as the US, you have to be very careful if Germany buys ships or air on G1, that means they’d contest the Atlantic, which means you need more US resources there.  But if Ger goes all land then that can open up more freedom for a potential full US Pac strat.

Very interesting.  I think 100% the opposite.

Tanks are the best, most efficient units to cover ground and pressure Russia.
so a ground unit buy (tank heavy) would put maximum pressure on Russia, requiring the allies to help as fast as possible.

Conversely a Naval or Air buy reduces/delays pressure on Russia.  UK will buy a navy regardless, and can hover outside of range until they want to land.  When they do, can reinforce the navy the turn they move in to sz7,sz6 or sz3 with their buy.

US needs to land with one transport and some destroy cover 1 inf and 1 tank as many times as possible in Africa every turn and then turn all attention to Pacific.  Russia could also save China by sending 4-5 tanks into china to put a lid on Japan.

@Khobai:

Curious, what does Japan leave open/untouched on J1 to accomplish this?

Phillipines and Yunnan are typically skipped on round1. However it gives Japan unstoppable impetus when it comes to taking India/Persia/Transjordan/Egypt/etc… so I feel the tradeoff is well worth it. A strong southern push means Japanese ships can come through the suez on turn3 and japanese fighters can quickly reinforce france and italy to free up Germany’s units.

On  J1 do you leave the sz 50 fleet alone? what about the othe US naval units?

@axis_roll:

@DarthMaximus:

For the German part, as the US, you have to be very careful if Germany buys ships or air on G1, that means they’d contest the Atlantic, which means you need more US resources there.  But if Ger goes all land then that can open up more freedom for a potential full US Pac strat.

Very interesting.  I think 100% the opposite.

Tanks are the best, most efficient units to cover ground and pressure Russia.
so a ground unit buy (tank heavy) would put maximum pressure on Russia, requiring the allies to help as fast as possible.

I was thinking the US can’t get there before rd 4 or 5 (maybe) anyway.  Rd 1 would be ship cover for the Atlantic, Rd 2 to Alg, probably need a rd 3 to Alg as well, then maybe you can go to sz 6 in Rd 4 and set up a shuck to Kar by rd 5.  At this point Germany either did its damage or it didn’t.

Regardless of strat, Russia is pretty much on her own for the first 5 turns.  Maybe you can start to dump in some air support in the early rounds but I’m hesitant to give up the Russian NO before you collect in rd 4 unless it is an absolute emergency.

Russia can counter the tanks with Inf/Rt.  You’d obviously have to force Germany to trade BST and Ukr every turn, if they are too light on Inf then ultimately Germany is trading armor for inf/rt.  Good deal for the Russians.  Russia can also match unit placement, they have up to 12 spots while Germany has 10.  Essentiallly Russia can place 9-11 units per turn for the first 4 turns at least, that should be enough to prevent yourself from being rolled over, but you do have to watch for the can opener.

@axis_roll:

Conversely a Naval or Air buy reduces/delays pressure on Russia.  UK will buy a navy regardless, and can hover outside of range until they want to land.  When they do, can reinforce the navy the turn they move in to sz7,sz6 or sz3 with their buy.

True, it will open up a space for Russia, and UK can reinforce the desired sz and plan out her buys, but I was just thinking it might get too costly for the UK to be buying too many ships that don’t do much.  Here it might be better to just bite the bullet an maybe buy 1 US AC for the Atlantic before going Pac (or 1-2 dd for fodder) so the UK can focus on trns and units.

I suppose it is a fine line and really depends on Germany’s commitment.  Did they just buy 1 ftr, or are you seeing them buy 1 bom per turn?  How is the UK empire holding up?

Normally, I’d agree, and if I see Germany buying air or Navy, I’m going strong with Russia but I’m also providing some added US support.  I’ve had some games where I’ve lost the Allied Atlantic fleets so I want to make sure it stays above water.  It is no longer a bad play for Germany to send a bunch of planes after the ships, esp if they already shifted the economic balance of the game.  In previous versions this type of an attack was usually a no-go for Ger since almost any allied player would trade ships for the G ftrs/bombers, but in AA50 it is easier to justify the attack as Germany which makes it riskier to leave an Allied fleet that has “just enough” ships to stave off an attack.  “Just Enough” can turn into “Disaster” with an extra hit/miss or two from the dice.

@DarthMaximus:

@axis_roll:

@DarthMaximus:

For the German part, as the US, you have to be very careful if Germany buys ships or air on G1, that means they’d contest the Atlantic, which means you need more US resources there.  But if Ger goes all land then that can open up more freedom for a potential full US Pac strat.

Very interesting.  I think 100% the opposite.

Tanks are the best, most efficient units to cover ground and pressure Russia.
so a ground unit buy (tank heavy) would put maximum pressure on Russia, requiring the allies to help as fast as possible.

I was thinking the US can’t get there before rd 4 or 5 (maybe) anyway.  Rd 1 would be ship cover for the Atlantic, Rd 2 to Alg, probably need a rd 3 to Alg as well, then maybe you can go to sz 6 in Rd 4 and set up a shuck to Kar by rd 5.  At this point Germany either did its damage or it didn’t.

Regardless of strat, Russia is pretty much on her own for the first 5 turns.  Maybe you can start to dump in some air support in the early rounds but I’m hesitant to give up the Russian NO before you collect in rd 4 unless it is an absolute emergency.

well if UK really wanted to help, they could be in sz4 on UK2 dumping into karelia/arch.
US can get planes in there as well.

Which would the allies rather have?  The Russia extra $5 NO or their capital still under Communist control?
Sometimes you have to forgo the $5 IPCs……

@DarthMaximus:

Russia can counter the tanks with Inf/Rt.  You’d obviously have to force Germany to trade BST and Ukr every turn, if they are too light on Inf then ultimately Germany is trading armor for inf/rt.  Good deal for the Russians.  Russia can also match unit placement, they have up to 12 spots while Germany has 10.  Essentiallly Russia can place 9-11 units per turn for the first 4 turns at least, that should be enough to prevent yourself from being rolled over, but you do have to watch for the can opener.

A lot depends on the number of retailitory hits both sides inflict on each other in round 1 and 2.

Just 5 or 6 unit swings can be huge so early in the game, ESPECIALLY if the allies are not in a position to throw in some allied ftrs in an emergency situation.

Here’s my quick take on the European NO’s:

They are easy money for Germany to take especially the first several rounds, probably for 2 rounds they can get all 3… then with that money, Germany should be able to build a strong enough army to sustain the other two NOs (with a little Japanese help of 2 ftrs in France) for a long time.

That’s $39 without Norway or Finland or any of Africa.
With enough ftrs, Germany can trade efficiently and be very hard to invade.

So my take is to go and get that early money and use it to build fortress Europe.
You also can win the game if Russia falters under the early pressure, or Africa goes well for you and Germany can add some bombers for evne more pressure.

If not, Germany can hanker down, and hope that Japan can do the dirty work… Japan needs to also have a good start, and sometimes even a full all out USA assault may only amount to a cat and mouse game.

There’s a very fine balance in this game.  Once the momenteum swings, it goes quickly (for either side), so the game is a much faster one with the NO’s than without them.

As Japan, I’m happy to see Russians headed into India and China R1.  It’s already hard enough for Russia to advance in Europe…down 4-6 inf it gets tricky to advance and/or deny Germany any NOs.  In this scenario you may deadzone Kar for a while but not hold it.

I like to hit Philippines J1, but occasionally it’s worthwhile to change it up and land in Burma.  If for example Russia buys a bomber, landing in Burma can disrupt the Allied game plan and Japan can hack at retreating armies.  Be sure to take Philippines J2…otherwise Japs hand the USA fistfuls of cash.

@DarthMaximus:

I’d like to test something, so I was was wondering if anyone wanted to play a test game?

1 - I’d take the Allies with 3 ipc (1 extra UK inf on Egy) - I’d like to keep it as close to the original set-up as possible and what I want to test would probably be moot if Ger took Egy really heavy.

2 - I’d need someone who is confident in their Axis play.

3 - You’d have to do a “normal” G1.  By that I mean you can’t buy any ships on G1.  Use a standard opening.

4 - Regular dice, No Tech, Yes NOs.  No other optionals.

5 - It shouldn’t take very long to see what I want to test, so after 1-3 rds we can probably decide if the game is viable to play out longer.

I have two league games that will take priority but should still be able to do a turn a day and would like a similar pace.

It should be a fun test.

It wouldn’t be difficult to find someone in the TripleA lobby to play axis against (you) allies with just a $3 allied bid, not even with regular dice.

I haven’t reloaded TripleA yet, but I’m not sure if I have time for a ‘real-time’ game.

Plus for this particular test, I’d like in-game discussion.  Not necessarily players telling other players what to do, but having people immediately be able to ask ‘why did you do that?’ or ‘that was stupid’.  Obviously my opponent would have to be okay with in game comments as well.

There is one specific thing I’d like to see early on, but I think it could generate a variety of potential in game responses, so a little discussion might help.

Darth I will be around daily through Sunday after that I go back to Fridays through Sunday being online. I would be more than willing to play out whatever you have in mind to test. I don’t mind in game discussions and I do have plenty of AA50-41 games under my belt.

That’ll work.  I might be a little slow tonight and tomorrow night, but after that should be good.

You are free to do G1 whenever you are ready.  Just throw 1 extra inf on Egy.

Also don’t put any dice rolls in your first post of the game thread, I may edit the title later to accurately reflect what is tested.