France and what should be done about it.

Oztea I like your map i think the territories are right. And like you, I wish the game would start May 10th 1940 before Germany attacked and invaded benelux and france, but it does not, Larry said it starts June 4th. It confuses me why the game would start in the middle of the battle of france, but it seems like it does. The only reason I say this is that the German player would proabably then also start out controlling the picardy territory aswell as the low countires.

@Imperious:

oztea:

Pretty soon we should expect 3D modeling on how france should be done?  You should post that on Harris game design. seriously.

Yeah, seriously.  We should all be getting our opinions now before the Europe map can still be modified.  I’llstart a thread on the Larry Harris forum if there isn’t one already under the “Talk To Larry” Seaction.

yes. make your case heard.

@Imperious:

I prefer france split like that picture. Make the coastal zones worth next to nothing and the invasion will have to be a real deal rather than 20 various probing fake invasions just to hijack IPC.

Wow. Obvious but true. I’ve always hated that about western europe in revised/original (and now AA42). So easy once Germany is on the ropes in the east for the UK to just nip in - snatch 6 IPCs and run!

@Twigley:

@Imperious:

I prefer france split like that picture. Make the coastal zones worth next to nothing and the invasion will have to be a real deal rather than 20 various probing fake invasions just to hijack IPC.

Wow. Obvious but true. I’ve always hated that about western europe in revised/original (and now AA42). So easy once Germany is on the ropes in the east for the UK to just nip in - snatch 6 IPCs and run!

and for Germany to just snatch it back, get 6 ipcs, and run too

i’ve played a few games in AA50 with NOs where Germany would leave france completely undefended each turn starting on the first turn, so that they could send more units east to the russian front.
Actually, that gets me curious.  When this game comes out, I’ll have to try being the Axis and not attacking France in favor of more units hitting moscow.  Or just taking Paris, and only then going for moscow, while ignoring the other french territories that can’t be taken for free.

and for Germany to just snatch it back, get 6 ipcs, and run too

Yes france becomes a watering fountain for various birds taking turns bathing and drinking. Its a joke to have such a thing going on in a game and needs to be fixed. And its easy to do so.

One idea:

from another poster:

Blockhouse: cost 8 IPC against sea invasions it fires after SB at 2 or less against EVERY land unit in the first round only.

Against attacks from another land territory your land units defense goes up +1 every round.

Now your invasion will have to be real effort to hold france.

I personally liked Oztea’s depiction, where France had five territories and the Med. and Atlantic were separated by two territories. Of course there could be many more added but I think for gaming’s sake this is the maximum number of territories that France should have while still being able to display the actual countryside accurately.

Has anyone asked Larry about the split of France? He might spill it. I was also wondering if England will be split. With Australia getting what looks like 5 tt, UK should also be split (at least 2 tt), of coarse Japan was left as 1 tt(with 1 sea zone). Another thing in AA50 the The English Chanel is between UK & NW Europe, or does NWE include N France (Picardy). Just a thought.

Amp assault def rule (blockhouse) should be part of the game, as well as some type of marine rule to counter it. Larry already said there will be no blockhouses. So maybe some type of inf/art pairing (as discussed in another section)could be ruled in for coastal def. Where inf gets +1 on def when paired w/art to def against amp assault only. That way it forces you to build that Atlantic Wall. Maybe it only last 1 round of battle. Giving a bonus to inf paired w/art is already in the game and would only be 1 extra line in the rule book.  Giving art another role will keep it part of the game especially w/mech inf coming.  As for marines you kinda have that when your inf attack w/art. Then if you get advanced art its even better.

I read twice in the info thread
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=15031.0
that blockhouses in the new games wasn’t decided yet, so unless there’s something new I think we could hold out hope for them.

regardless of the actual pieces, the Japs need to get an automatic roll of 3 for INF to signify thier defensive preparations on their first turn against any amp. assault regardless of what happens to the rest of the countries.  wouldn’t have to be pre-emptive, but needed.

I read on the talk to Larry tread AAp40, about in the middle of the 13th page, Larry said no blockhouse rule but paratroopers are still alive. IL is still pleading his case so I guess it could still happen I hope so.

yea we must have a go at it, but it may not happen.

i have to go over to Larry’s forum to check out the complete conversation, just haven’t made it there yet, only picking up the pieces from here.  IL, keep at it, bend him to your will and fix the rest of the problems while you are at it, eh!  Good on ya!

Well I can say the Mechanized Infantry and Fighter-Bomber pieces were pushed for many years by direct and indirect means at my disposal and its true if you say something long enough it begins to sink in and take hold. Neutrals were another matter and finally a breakthrough was made by the combined work of many others as well who didn’t like the idea that the design conveniently swept them under a rug and ignored their existence. Lastly, we bugged him for a start date in 1939, but got 1940, which is guess is at least something.

Its a matter of time before we get some other things done that make it more historical.

Yes, victory is within our grasp!

Btw, Larry said the board will be 30"x70".  Is that just one half, or the entire board?

each map is 35 x 30

I’m not sure i like the idea of a blockhouse unit.  (assuming that it means a unit that fires on everyone during the first turn, like AA does).  It is much too powerful, and would ensure that people do not land there.
I like the slow move from defensive style gaming to more offensive styles:
including of Artillery as an effectively 3/2/2/4 unit when used properly
bombers reduced in price to 12
fighters reduced to price of 10
subs reduced in price to 6 and becoming a 2/1/2/6 unit
tanks becoming a 3/3/2/5 unit, which by increasing their defense by 1 meant that people would now actually buy them and thereby have more offensive punch in general from simply having more of them around (in AA classic, people bought close to 100% infantry)

I love the idea of a fighter bomber, effectively 4/3/4/11, when used properly, would give another option for offensive action at sea (and ground too).
I kind of like the idea of mech infantry as a 1/2/2/4 unit, which obviously would be built for offensive action to reach the front, but does not have the attack power to be much more than a hit soaker.  I would much more hope that there could be a 2/2/2/4 unit instead, or that the mech inf could bring art with them when coupled 1:1, or that since tanks are being increased to 3/3/2/6, we now need a 3/1/2/5 unit or something.

I disagree with the idea of purely offensive unit.  This game has too much defense already with infantry costing so little (their attack and defense rolls are perfect, but the fact that they cost 3ipc per hit point makes them the best unit in the game by far.  tanks will soon cost 6ipcs per hit point, which is horrible.  hit points are a stat that is not looked at enough)

Blockhouse does not move its defensive only. It makes alot of sence to have something that gives a sting against landing troops hitting 33% for 8 IPC. Its a great defense and the damage it does perfectly models the fear the allies had about landing against a properly built up defense. Germany never did complete this proper defense, but having this unit makes somebody think twice about a “raid” vs a real invasion and stops the idea of taking france 50 times a game just to collect income for both sides.

Plus how do you think the Maginot line is going to be represented? The Siegfried line?

@Imperious:

Blockhouse does not move its defensive only. It makes alot of sence to have something that gives a sting against landing troops hitting 33% for 8 IPC. Its a great defense and the damage it does perfectly models the fear the allies had about landing against a properly built up defense. Germany never did complete this proper defense, but having this unit makes somebody think twice about a “raid” vs a real invasion and stops the idea of taking france 50 times a game just to collect income for both sides.

Plus how do you think the Maginot line is going to be represented? The Siegfried line?

i think it would do exactly the opposite of what you intend
instead of forcing the allies to attack with overwhelming forces, you are actually forcing them to either attack with as few as possible or not attack at all.
if i attacked with overwhelming forces of 10 tanks and 10 infantry, against say just 1 infantry and 1 blockhouse unit, then you would get to roll a 2 against all 20 of my land units, even though all you have is just 1 inf and 1 blockhouse.

how about this instead:
blockhouse units: after shorebombard fires a 2 out of 6 for each defending infantry, up to 4 times, during first round of combat only.  Any casualties still get their casualty shots just like ShoreBombarding.  (defender still gets to choose casualties, multiple blockhouses require additional defending infantry, ie: if the germans have 6 infantry and 2 blockhouses in france, then the blockhouses would fire a grand total of 6 times.  if you had 10 infantry and 2 blockhouses, the blockhouses would fire a grand total of 8 times)
my version is not dependent on the number of people attacking, and so if i attack with 2 tanks against a blockhouse being manned by 2 infantry, then you could wipe out my invasion force first round.  This gives me an incentive to bring more units, while your version gives me an incentive not to bring more units.
[the numbers could change, it could be a 1 out of 6 for the defense, or it could be 3 inf it gets paired with, or it could cost 10 ipcs, etc.  its the concept that is different]

I still disagree even with my version though, because i don’t think we need any more emphasis on defense than there already is.