Darth: I absolutely agree. Everyone wants to push their stack east, but not everyone is willing to sacrifice WE to do it. The “stack WE until they pry it from your cold dead fingers” approach that many follow (and that I myself used for a while) only gets you so far…there just aren’t enough inf to have your cake and eat it too. Timing the abandonment of WE is, I think, a lot of the finesse of playing Germany well. Recently I’ve been seeing a lot of expert players empty it on turn 3 or 4, and one world-class player I’m in a game with emptied it on G1!
Zhukov: At the risk of going off topic into a full discussion of G1 purchases (hey, the Revised boards are slow enough we should probably take any activity we can get, right?): I think one reason art are less popular on G1, besides that most people undervalue art anyway, is that you don’t need them for a while. During the trading phase where you swap border territories with Russia, you have enough air power to just use inf and planes for the trading. Art really only come into play when you want to push your stack up, or prevent them from pushing theirs, so you can probably afford to buy it turn 2 or 3. Tank purchases on G1 immediately project power into the hot zones of Karelia and Ukraine. For example, you can deter a Russian stack advance to Ukraine if that was a danger. Or, if you stacked Karelia on G1, your tanks can help hold the line on G2 until your G1 inf purchase arrives on G3. In the longer term, it’s good to have a decent number of tanks around, either to help defend WE as Darth recommends, or (after you abandon WE) to keep in EE where they can pressure Russia while simultaneously keeping WE deadzoned. I do like to have some art in my German stack as well, but often get them G2 instead of G1. Sometimes I go with 12 inf 1 art on G1 if I feel like playing a slower game.
Hey, I know this is Revised, but does evacuating France in AA50 also make sense, or is that a bad idea since UK/US get NOs for it? Because if you don’t have enough men to keep sending there AND east, you gotta make a hard decision. Sorry to hijack the thread. :-P
In AA50 + NOs, I prefer to keep France as long as possible, instead of trading. In a KGIF Germany can only hold France for so long, and then axis have to make a judgment, a lesser evil will probably be to trade France instead of losing France in a battle.
It’s hard to say when to start trading France in AA50, but it will be necessary sooner or later. And if axis don’t accomplish their goals in the first 3 rnds, then allies will prevail.
For AA50, I’m probably not the person to ask, I’ve been getting hammered lately. I think NO’s make it much different consider one trade (if you need to wait for Ger to recapture) gives both UK AND US a boost.
But you also have Italy there to defend in between UK/US attacks so that changes things as well.
Darth: I absolutely agree. Everyone wants to push their stack east, but not everyone is willing to sacrifice WE to do it. The “stack WE until they pry it from your cold dead fingers” approach that many follow (and that I myself used for a while) only gets you so far…there just aren’t enough inf to have your cake and eat it too. Timing the abandonment of WE is, I think, a lot of the finesse of playing Germany well. Recently I’ve been seeing a lot of expert players empty it on turn 3 or 4, and one world-class player I’m in a game with emptied it on G1!
I’ve occassionaly pulled out on G1 if I need the units for a Kar stack. I’ll use the tran to move 2 inf from WE to Kar and that way you have all Ger inf in EE for G2. Figure with the G1 buy UK can’t do much damage in WE, plus you can channel dash with the subs and/or dd amd it keeps UK units out of Afr or Nor.
I’ve usually found that against a good Allied shuck, G4 seems to be the make/break time for Ger to decide on WE since the US can probably start to realistically help out in WE.
Zhukov: At the risk of going off topic into a full discussion of G1 purchases (hey, the Revised boards are slow enough we should probably take any activity we can get, right?): I think one reason art are less popular on G1, besides that most people undervalue art anyway, is that you don’t need them for a while. During the trading phase where you swap border territories with Russia, you have enough air power to just use inf and planes for the trading. Art really only come into play when you want to push your stack up, or prevent them from pushing theirs, so you can probably afford to buy it turn 2 or 3. Tank purchases on G1 immediately project power into the hot zones of Karelia and Ukraine. For example, you can deter a Russian stack advance to Ukraine if that was a danger. Or, if you stacked Karelia on G1, your tanks can help hold the line on G2 until your G1 inf purchase arrives on G3. In the longer term, it’s good to have a decent number of tanks around, either to help defend WE as Darth recommends, or (after you abandon WE) to keep in EE where they can pressure Russia while simultaneously keeping WE deadzoned. I do like to have some art in my German stack as well, but often get them G2 instead of G1. Sometimes I go with 12 inf 1 art on G1 if I feel like playing a slower game.
Hmm good explanation. Tis true, I do get 12 inf 1 art fairly often and when I do I’m always thinking about another inf/art/arm purchase on G2 that will even out my ratios….so in the same vein 10 inf 2 arm is certainly reasonable if I get some Rt G2. I can agree that in most cases against expert oppos Germany is well served by concentrating on inf the first 2 rounds…BUT there are exceptional cases, like say Russia gets diced, or Allies go full-bore KJF, where it could be a good idea to be more agressive, and in those cases I would want some rt on G1. I guess where I’m coming from is the perception that Germany starts with plenty of inf already for trading purposes…but if it comes to an early fight, I would like to have some Rt in the mix. So in that vein…if you need the 2 armor right away why not get 6 inf 3 rt 2 arm and then even it out with a big inf purchase on G2?
Good read, I liked the article.
This is a good article, and I’d like to try and revive some of the discussion, I’m surprised this hasn’t stirred up more replies. I’m doing something to this effect in a friendly PBEM game where Russia attacked WR+Ukr, rolled up, sent a lot East on R1, and bought 6 inf, 1 tank. In it, I managed a G1 Ukraine stack and bought 5inf, 5 tanks(a risky play, needed the med fleet and a Japanese fighter from FIC) and with help from Japan’s fighters held Caucuses G3! In order to get this much done, Germany abandoned WE on G2. I pulled out of Caucuses on G5 because I needed tanks on EE to deadzone WE. Germany’s tanks and Japan’s fighters are proving invaluable in this game.
What I’m trying to get at is whether West Russia is a superior stacking territory to Caucuses. It’s an interesting debate. I’m reiterating some of the points in the article, but they definitely have their pros and cons and sometimes the better one depends on the game. Caucuses has a factory that Germany can build with. But I think that there’s often more value in keeping the Allies out of Karelia(assuming KGF) by stacking West Russia instead of Caucuses. What I’m thinking is that Germany will keep tanks on EE to maintain deadzones on Karelia and Western Europe all the while sending infantry and artillery to West Russia by route of Belorussia to keep max pressure on Karelia. When it is clear that Germany and Japan have enough to give Moscow a 1-2 punch, then tanks can be sent forward from EE to help kill Russians. Germany must be careful on timing the advance of their tank stack. It lets the Allies hold WE which is a big setback for the Axis unless Russia is falling fast.
I’m starting to get partial to stacking West Russia as Germany with the goal of keeping Karelia gray for as long as possible but I’d like more opinions and other people’s insights. For example, if the US and UK can safely stack Karelia, Germany cannot protect their supply line EE to Belo to WR and can’t handle a 1-2-3 on the West Russia stack. Instead, could it be best for Germany to strafe Karelia even if it isn’t quite profitable, with the intent of retreating to Eastern Europe and leaving Russia up to Japan?
As for early purchases, I usually like 10 inf, 2 tanks G1 and 10 inf, 3 art G2. While Germany has only 1-2 artillery in Europe right away and should get more soon, the early tanks can help open the door for a early stacking opportunity or prevent an Russian stack in Ukraine which can be invaluable. Not buying tanks could potentially cost Germany early momentum.
Fleetwood,
I think the question of where to stack depends on situational factors (yours and enemy strength and disposition). I’d say the initial goal should be stacking/controlling Cauc, a territory that is strategically invaluable. The reason is Cauc is a place where Japanese tanks and fighters can arrive in force. I figure by the time the Germans arrive at Cauc (whether via Ukraine or WR) then they are usually in need of some reinforcement, unless they are ready to attack Moscow immediately.
I had a game once where a strong UK shuck through Kar/Arch became such a problem that Germany moved its stack to WR–and this tactic did succeed in blocking UK reinforcements. But in this case, by that time the Japs had a big tank stack at Cauc so the Russians weren’t strong enough to strafe either the German stack at WR or the Jap stack at Cauc.
If the game plan is to destroy Moscow with the Japanese and use the Germans to block reinforcements, then moving the German stack to WR makes a lot of sense. It also allows Germany to contest Karelia and Archangel which should gradually wear down Russia and hopefully block the UK.
LIke this Darth, thanks. One point I dont follow. What are you suggesting Germany does with any pieces left in Ukraine or Belorussia after the Russian Move. Retreat to EE? Keep a bare min of infantry in each zone to prevent a blitz?
Or make Russia pay for these territories if they want em. Basically, maintain status quo on the front and only reinforce EE from the West (new purchases or movement)
Yes, you can retreat them to EE. I usually leave 1 inf behind just so Russia can’t walk-in. Also if Russia attacks Ukr on Rd 1, you can counter it, but you try and bring as little as possible. With the number of planes Germany starts with you can usually afford to trade Kar/Bel/Ukr in the first few rds.
Now if Russia failed in Ukr or moved some units out of range, I’d seriously consider stacking Ukr on G1 (if you can land G planes there). You might need to buy some armor on G1 to make sure you can hold from G2 on. I’d also consider stacking Belo, again if Russia didn’t overload Wrus. The overall German opening depends on the number of units Russia can bring to Belo, Kar, Ukr on R2. But in all honesty most turns on Russia 1 don’t allow an early German forward stack so your safe doing some trading and keeping most of your units in EE.
Another important factor early for Germany is Africa. You need to take Egy with enough force so UK can’t counter. From here you blitz and take as much of Afr as you can without sending too many troops from Europe. Ideally you’ll send 2 additional units to Egy on G1 and 2 more to Trj on G2. After that pretty much everything else can stay in Europe and you can decide how best to use your Med fleet (ie go to Mad or Ind, or stay in Med to reinforce Ukr directly). I like to get my fleet out of the Med before the Allies can sink it, which means usually on G3 or 4.
Great stuff. Sure makes the game a heck of a lot more interesting! I am in the midst of trying this, and interestingly, Russia broke it’s back on my stack trying to be the first one to strike. Should have been a fairly even fight, but they got diced a bit and their front lines are smashed but left me with 8 tanks and a few guys in EE.
Still though, Allies have 6 transports in immediate play in europe and you have to keep a heck of a lot back to protect WE, Germany, an EE.
