Japan Basic Strategies, Concepts and Ideas

Interesting.

Unless I’m missing it, that frood.com doenst have a combat calculator for A&A50 yet, right? I’d be REALLY interested to see the way subs stack up in combat in those sims.

Apart from that, I can only look at it from a quick analytical point of view. And to me, it appears that subs can be terrifying if used properly. The lack of ability to hit planes is not necessarily a disadvantage IMO. It means that once the DDs are gone, the next thing on the list has a minimum IPC cost of 12 and it goes up from there.

Subs simply threaten surface fleets. And that makes them potent IMO. Just avoid DDs within 2 spaces and you can go wherever you want. Stray DDs are easily brought down by BBs or airpower. I just really think that ability to avoid airpower (both attacking and being attacked) cannot be overstated. But I guess YMMV :)

@Cmdr:

Actually, once defending submarines are gone then defending destroyers are gone, you can damage battleships and then you can hit cruisers, assuming you survive that long, you probably wont.

Generally speaking, I have yet to be “terrified” of a submarine in AA50.  I’ve laughed, I’ve laughed so hard I cried, I giggled to the point of a guffaw at them, but I’ve not been terrified!

I’ll point out:

10,000 Submarines vs 1 Destroyer and 4,999 Bombers (almost same cost) should result with:

3,333 hits from the attacker
1 hit from the defender

Cost to the attacker: 8 IPC
Cost to the defender: 19,998 IPC

Still like your submarines?

Even though I agree with you Jen, you do have to take in consideration that a smart player would watch out for DD’s. (would that be a contradictio in terminis? “A smart player buying 10k subs…” )
If there would be no DD (because a smart one would take it out, or stay out of it’s range), you could attack 2500 AV’s, all loaded with fighters (5000).

Those 5k fighters are useless, and with your surprise kill you could get 3300 kills (subs hit at 2 right?). The vessels that you actually kill, don’t get to fight back.

More convenient is that those 5000 fighters will go down as well, as there is no ground underneath their feet…

Now thát could make a sub useful…
And with only 6 or 7 IPC, every 2 subs = 1 CV.

It depends on the number of subs but DDs alone do not deter an attack.

Consider this:

Attacker: 6 subs
Defense:  2 dd, 2 ac, 4 ftrs (def has no island to land on)

Round 1 - 2 hits to 4 hits

Round 2 - 2 subs vs. 2 ac, 4 ftrs?

Now the ftrs can’t shoot back? 
and it is essentally 2 subs vs. 2 ac.  Not a bad battle there.

Or did the Def lose an AC the previous turn?  If that is the case you can retreat and not only sink an AC but down two ftrs for free.

Granted this is a bit simplistic but assuming you can get the subs in range you might be able to create some OOL problems for your opponent.

If you expect large scale naval battles (Jap vs. US).  It is nice to buy some cheap fodder (4 subs for 24) assuming you already have your heavy hitters.  Even though they defend at 1, sometimes you just need the numbers, esp when you have 1-2 dd and a couple loaded ACs.  IMO they make sense for the US if you are going to be aggressive in the Pac, since they are a nice cheap attacking unit.
Why spend 8, when 6 will do?
If you are agressive, at some point you need to sink Japan’s 3 ACs, 1 BB plus whatever else they buy, and subs attack just as well as DDs so you’ll probably want to go with cheapness and numbers.

This was my first turn as Japan in my latest game.  I won all the battles, but lost the DD at Pearl and only a few inf overall.  It went really well.

Buy 2 trns, 1 inf.

Attack:

Bor - mt vs. 1 inf (car via trn)
Sum - mt vs. 2 inf (car via trn)
Sz 53 - bb vs. dd (sz 51), 2 ftrs (sz 57)
Sz 56 - trn, dd vs. 2 ftrs (sz 57)
Sz 35 - trn, dd vs. 2 ftrs (sz 61)
Yun - 1 inf, 1 ftr vs. 3 inf (fic), 2 ftrs (man, for)
Sui - 1 inf vs. 3 inf (man)
Hup - 1 inf vs. 3 inf (kia)
Kwa - 1 inf vs. 1 inf, 1 rt (sz 61), 1 ca (sz 61)
Sz 50 - trn, dd vs. 1 ftr (jap), 1 bb (sz 61) [1 trn with 2 inf from sz 61, 1 trn with 1 inf oki, 1 arm jap] - ftr will land on ac moving from sz 57 to 60 if needed
Phil - 2 inf vs. 3 inf, 1 arm (sz 61, oki, jap)

I’ll point out:

10,000 Submarines vs 1 Destroyer and 4,999 Bombers (almost same cost) should result with:

3,333 hits from the attacker
1 hit from the defender

Cost to the attacker: 8 IPC
Cost to the defender: 19,998 IPC

Honestly that argument holds no water. Thats like saying AA guns are useless because if your opponent brings only tanks and infantry they cant do anything (and the AA guns are CAPTURED unlike the sub).

Subs create opportunities that DDs cannot. Its that simple. They dont replace DDs, they fulfill a different (and still highly useful) purpose. IMO, CVs and BBs are far better combatants than DDs. Given my druthers, I’d build mostly BBs and CVs with DDs only for screening. But the presence of subs forces DD builds…and they are cheaper. If Player A has a few CVs/BBs and DDs and player B attacks with equal value of CVs/BBs and Subs, player B should have a pretty significant advantage in the combat.

In the end, I guess time will tell if subs end up in the scrapyard, but at this point I’m seeing entirely too much success with them to dismiss them out of hand.

Maybe just use them for pacific island sailing. If the japanese are keeping multiple fighters
bombers out in their islands which are not under invasion threat, then they are not on the mainland helping. When the DD comes to stop you from harassing his transports, if it comes alone, it has to come towards you and thus you will be the one who gets to attack. If he sends more then 1 DD then you just diverted a lot for only 6 bucks and you can run away and then either he follows in which case you wasted more of its time or if he goes back you go back. Basically use them to make it more work to get all those infantry off the various pacific islands that usually get taken to the mainland. Every sub that makes a DD chase it just bought 2 IPCs right? Just dont let them attack first. Make the first move and they have to come to you

I thought this was the '41 section. The US has no subs in 41 and the Japanese have to take all those islands in 41. This isn’t revised either and with the kind of money Japan makes I see no pressing need to go fetch all those infantry like revised.

Ok, lets try a different tack. You tout the 1 DD and 500 Bombers or whatever vs 1000 Subs. Obviously thats completely silly. But at the very least if a plane is attacking a sub (AND you’ve commited a DD), then thats one more place where that plane is NOT. And in many cases that is a completely fine investment of IPCs as America. If I can keep Japanese planes and CVs floating around the Pacific on ASW, then they arent bothering the Russians or the Chinese or the Brits. You are tieing up a DD and prolly 2 Fighters and likely the CV to base them on to kill a sub that is cheap and easily replaced. If you want to commit bombers, even better. Time can be as big of a resource in A&A than IPCs are IMO.

In any case, until you’ve seen subs well handled, I guess you’ll continue to dismiss them as useless. Thats fine, but I believe you are selling yourself really short on the Pacific tactics.

Trust me Jenn well knows the value of subs in OTHER versions of A&A. I use them myself sometimes in the PTO in Revised, however in THIS incarnation of A&A they are nearly worthless.

I used 10,000 submarines and 1 destroyer with 4,999 bombers (equivalent cost) for a reason.  It demonstrates just how bad the submarine is.  It’s akin to running a simulator over 10,000 identical battles to see if this one battle should go your way or not (like when you use Frood to find out the probably results.)

And its still an inane argument and very much like the AA gun vs Tanks. If you insist on using something incorrectly, expect to get poor results. I bet you could send 5000 TRs against 1 sub and I bet you are gonna lose. Does that mean TRs are useless? Ditto for CVs…Buy all CVs and aircraft and I’ll put them against equal IPC of subs…hell, you can even attack and I’ll defend with ‘worthless subs’ and still win…CVs and planes are useless? Come on…

If you have valid analysis I’d love to hear it, but making ridiculous comparisons and examples does exactly zero to promote a case.

In the games I play,subs serve a valuable purpose tactically,at least for Japan and the US. I usually commit the US to attacking Japan and re-capturing the island chains. This forces Japan to fight for the economically vital islands in the SW Pac. The subs lurk around the in ones and twos,trying to stay outside the range of any destroyers and looking for a chance to slip through the islands and attack unprotected ships,mainly transports and carriers of course. They are also bait. The layout of the islands and the way they are connected offers a lot of possibilities to maneuver. To just say they are valueless is short-sighted.

I don’t think anyone is saying “just build all subs” I think people are saying “build a sub or two a turn, you never know when they can get in a good kill and if not, hey fodder and attack on a 2 isnt bad for 6 IPC”.

So i think everyone agrees that, just building subs=dumb, subs as part of a fleet=probably good idea.  Or i could have misread everything as its 3 AM.

Out of curiosity, how long do your games tend to run (in turns)?

It sounds like you are used to more of a ‘build up’ and ‘stand off’ than I’ve seen in my games (so far at least). If you have the resources and time to pile that much stuff into a fleet to protect a few TRs then we are playing in completely different realms. ;)