At the end of J1 I have 43 IPCs
Wow, that’s quite the head start bigdog. I’ve been running through the scenarios and by my count you have to get all of the NO’s and do a crazy territory grab to get 43 IPCs by round 1.
Suiyan - 3INF from Manuchuria
Hupeh - 2INF from Kiangsu, 1FTR from Manchuria
Fukien - 1INF from Kiangsu, 1INF from French Indo-China, 1FTR from Japan
Kwangtung - 2INF from French Indo-China, 1FTR from Formosa
Borneo - 1TN (2INF) from sz61
East Indies - 1TN (1INF) from sz51
Philippine Islands - 1TN (1INF, 1ARM) from sz62, 1TN (1INF, 1ART) from sz61
sz50 - 1BB, 1CA from sz61
sz53 - 1 DD from sz51, 2FTR from sz57
Hawaiian Islands - 1TN (2INF) from sz51, 2FTR from sz57
sz35 - 2FTR from sz61
Now you’ve got 47 IPCs and all three NO’s but are spread pretty thin, also you’ve had to leave Funnan’s FTR alone. Unless there’s another way I’m not seeing. :-P
Take out the following:
Philippines
Borneo
East Indies
Kwangtung
plus either 3 Chinese territories or Burma + 2 Chinease territories. That’ll get you to 42, then if the Soviets pull back from Burytia you can stick a guy from Manch in there for 43.
It’s definately do-able. I’ll let you figure out the logistics of it though. :D
Ah I see, you don’t have to take Hawaii and instead shift your resources west, then you can take Funnan and still get 42 IPCs. I guess it would also depend on how aggressive the Russian player was, if there was a huge stack of infantry on Buryatia you’d want to be poised for an attack/counter-attack.
@Cmdr:
Darth:
I believe a rather intelligent player wouldn’t get into that situation unless it was completely unavoidable. Odds are if you have 6 submarines, your opponent will probably have 3 destroyers, 2 Cruisers, Aircraft Carrier, 2 Fighters and 2 IPC left over. (Just taking the same cash money for a more realistically balanced navy.)
Notice how the submarines are pretty much useless attacking this fleet and how they can be easily crushed by the fleet if they have to go on the defense.
Thing is, guys, submarines are so easily pushed aside and negated they really serve no purpose anymore. Perhaps if we gave them the ability to block naval movement back they’d have at least the function of cheap fodder to slow the enemy.
Huh??
3xDestroyer = 24 IPC, 2xCruiser = 24 IPC, 1xAC =14, 2xFighter =20 total = 82 IPC
6xSub = 36 IPC.
No suprise that the sub fleet is ineffective against a force twice as big….
Im not sure what your point was here.
now if it was 12 subs (72IPC) on the attack against the same fleet I would like those odds as the sub commander.
Back of a ciggy packet calculations indicate:
Round 1 - sub commander inflicts 4 ship only hits, defender inflicts 3-4 hits (lets say 4)
I am going to assume the defender loses 2xdestroyer 2xCruiser
Round 2 - sub gets 2.66 hits defender gets approx 2 hits
Both remaining defendign naval vessels are sunk, and the defending planes either spash into the sea or land on a friendly island.
attacker has lost 36 IPC defender 62…
A big stack of subs creates a 2 space bubble around itself that opposing navy better be careful of entering…
maybe I am missing your point.
I have 43 IPCs because I purchase a mainland IC on round 1. This leaves 2 IPCs. The IC goes in Kiangsu. This allows me to purchase up to 2 transports on J2 that are safe from US bombers in W. US that could land in Russia. I will move back north both of the Transports that took the Philippines and there is 1 already in SZ61 that took Kwangtung for the 2nd NO with Philippines, E. Indies and Borneo. On J2 if the Russians have not taken Manchuria I place an IC there if they have it will be J3. I shuck from Japan to Asia in SZ61 as again I can not worry about the unescorted transports for few turns until I am ready to some of my capitol ships back due to a US naval presence. With these 2 mainland ICs and Japan that is 9 yes 9 Armor as turn in Asia. the Infantry from Japan is just icing on the cake and I have recently been skipping it after the first few rounds for a ship are two to keep abreast/ahead of the US.
I think Jenn’s point was the US will have to buy 12 subs while Japan starts with a massive Navy. It is not like both powers start building fleets from scratch. Subs are nice but too many people are looking for them to be way more than they are. They do not block ships, they hit on a two or less, they cannot be taken as casualties from aircraft, and they are horrible on defense.
And honestly after the first few and I do mean few turns Japan is not running unescorted transports around the Pacific. They have already grabbed the cash and left.
I think Jenn’s point was the US will have to buy 12 subs while Japan starts with a massive Navy. It is not like both powers start building fleets from scratch. Subs are nice but too many people are looking for them to be way more than they are. They do not block ships, they hit on a two or less, they cannot be taken as casualties from aircraft, and they are horrible on defense.
Okay fair enough - but I see some of the things you mention about subs as being virtues namely - they cannot be taken as casualties from aircraft - if you are dealing with an opponent who has local naval and air superiority this is a -good- thing. Further you miss one further virtue - all hits made by a sub -must- be taken against a ship - again if you are dealing with an opponent with local naval and air superiority this is a virtue.
I still see the value in a big sub stack, interestingly I think its stronger defensively than offensively - its difficult to move the stack into attacking position (not impposible - see below) but there is a 2 space bubble around the subs that your opponent must be wary of crossing into.
To use it offensively you actually need to break the stack up so that it can collapse onto an enemy position - if your opponent only has a few destroyers they can only effectively attack one stack and then the other subs ‘collapse’ onto the enemy position. Much trivkier to pull off.
You can also use a DD to ‘block’ there block and setup a trade if you wish. Best area for this against japan would be staging in SZ 51 and placing a blocking DD in SZ 60. The problem is this sets up a deadly dance.
I guess I should have clarified they can not be taken as casualties to aircraft unless a DD is present.
No competent opponent is going to just let you push that massive stack of subs within striking range of their fleet. When it does a DD and all those aircraft will put the hurt on the sub stack. What are the odds of the subs hitting at 1 on defense? What are the odds of the fighters and possibly bombers hitting at 3 and 4?
Subs have their place and are useful. However a stack of subs alone is not going to win the Pacific. As bad as so many people here want it to be so it is not going to happen.
NoI didnt say it was going to -win- the pacific but it can stalemate it.
I agree that it will be difficult to make an attack with a sub only stack, but equally difficult for an enemy to approach that stack.
If the stack -splits- however it makes attacking possible - albeit difficult - you can only pre-emptively attack a number of stacks equal to your destroyers, in this case the sub commander will trade some subs for a new improved position on the map.
Too much theory crafting based on combat odds generators going on if people can’t see how Subs can help a player deal with a naval imbalance.
As Fenian says, I’ve seen a US sub-based fleet and heavy bombers (positioned on an island) which effectively deadzoned the Pacific. It was the ultimate US-defense fleet, since my Japanese fleet simply couldn’t reach and destroy this fleet (although the Japanese economy was way bigger than the US-economy).
Given in a Pacific situation however (and that is what this thread was all about): it is in the Japanese intrest to build alot of subs to ‘deadzone’ the Pacific, thus defending the Japanese islands. (Considering Japan is spearheading in Asia and not planning an invasion into the US)
I’m not sure whether a Japanese Pacific defense with subs is any good (since you can’t cover all your islands). To an American player however the massivly relying on subs is of little value, since he should be the one conquering the Japanese-held islands. (I haven’t seen a situation where the US controlled the Pacific and the game wasn’t clearly over).
@Cmdr:
I mentioned that in my results. If I remember correctly, 3,333 submarines were lost at sea and the attacker lost 1 destroyer. Now, if you really had those units, the attacker would still have 4,999 bombers and the defender would still have 6,667 submarines, but now the submarines have nothing to attack. :)
My thinking is if you remove the destroyer, than your bombers can’t hit submarines anymore. Planes can only hit subs if the destroyer is present
