Allied counter to German fleet-unification

@Mazer:

That’s because what you wrote was dreck.  Utter dreck.  I think I speak for all of us (and when I say “all of us” I mean even people not in this thread, even people who don’t play Axis and Allies, even people who can’t read), when I say we are all a little bit dumber for reading what you have written.  I have read more insightful mattress tags.  I have seen more brilliant strategies scribbled on a napkin with a crayon by a child trying to draw a rainbow pony.

I’m just sayin.

Peace ('cept for BPW)

Unfortunately, your calling attention to my plan is inconvenient at this time.  By dumbing down the masses, I was going to be the only bunny on earth in position to take control of the World Order of Chipmunks during their planned uprising in 2011.  Sadly, now that you have taken pre-emptive measures, I must respond in turn and destroy you.

P.S.  I don’t understand how you decoded our secret mattress tag communications scheme, nor do I understand how you clued in to our subliminal mind control crayon experiment.  But we will find answers to our questions, then the world shall tremble before the might of:

BUNNIES P WRATH!

Part of the problem with a submarine bid in SZ 12 or where-ever is that many players bid 7 IPC or lower to prevent such moves. (Also to prevent 3 Infantry to Ukriane and other gambits.)

So let’s assume you do not have 2 Submarines in SZ 12 to use against SZ 2 and that you therefore cannot sink the SZ 2 fleet. (Even with two submarines, you have odds of success, but I’ve never seen the SZ 2 fleet actually get sunk.)

From here, if you want a continued German Atlantic Navy, then I recommend you build Aircraft Carrier, Industrial Complex, 3 infantry on Germany 1.  (The Industrial Complex for W. Europe thereby allowing you to reinforce your fleets as needed without the need to sail to SZ 5 or SZ 14.)

BTW, if Germany DOES get an 8 IPC Bid for a Submarine to hit SZ 2 with, Russia should take out Norway and ignore Ukraine.  This ends Germany’s threat to SZ 2. (3 infantry, armor, 2 fighters - lose a fighter, and build one on Round 1 to replace it.)

Well, if only to see Russia try to take Norway, i’ll buy that sub and kill that Russian Karelia landed plane fast :P

But thanks, this points me the need to not group the 2 subs together in my bid but rather place the sub bid next to Western Europe ( if placing it next to own territory is allowed, i think so at least) still in range. At worst if Russia succeed in Norway, you send the initial sub against lone UK transport and bring back the sub bid to Baltic to reinforce it.

At that point i would only buy one more transport for baltic and start pounding Russia hard begining with Karelia fighter, swapping territories after that would cost them an arm and a leg and i prolly still have Ukraine which please me very much.

But eh, i grant you that you did prevent fleet unification if you were playing me ;) It’s just that the price you pay for it is kinda heavy.

@Corbeau:

But thanks, this points me the need to not group the 2 subs together in my bid

Most bid rules require that newly placed bid units be in a territory that already contains units belonging to that power.

There’s a lotta fun stuff you can do if that restriction is lifted.

Well, your faster than i edited :P

I thought sea zone next to own territory was ok, anyways, if worst comes to worst, can still send both subs against USA destroyer and 2 transports. Probably will knock out the 2 transports and mess allies a bit.

@Corbeau:

Well, if only to see Russia try to take Norway, i’ll buy that sub and kill that Russian Karelia landed plane fast :P

That’s why I made a point to say that one Russian plane dies in the attempt to take Norway so as to not give you a gift kill later. (Also makes liberating Norway that much harder with Germany if you attempt it.)

Also, Bunnies raises a point, there are often times restrictions on what you can bid.  FIDA being an example where you are required to retain half the bid as IPCs to be spent during your turn instead of placing all units on the board.  Another method of preventing the Submarine bid (or even worse, the Transport to SZ 14 bid!)

I would not play axis and even less attempt Fleet Unification under 8 ipcs bid. :-P

If people wants to apply restrictions and feel they are needed, i feel free to let them play axis under such for an easy kill  :evil: One things for sure, preventing Fleet Unification under such is an easy and sure thing.

Standard game nowadays are 8 ipc bid for axis and I don’t mean offense by saying my exemple is a pretty common bid.

Well, under FIDA standard bid is closer to 14-15 IPC with 7 IPC for units immediately and 7 or 8 IPC for builds later on your turn.

Standard LHTR bids I have seen so far have averaged closer to 5-7 IPC for units.  8 IPCs are very rare because it forces the Allies to make sub-standard moves and no allied player wants to be in that situation, so they either bid 8 themselves (getting the allies) or 7 (getting the axis.)

Anyway, Fleet Unification without 8 IPC is not so hard.

Battleship, Transport from SZ 14 to SZ 13
Infantry from S. Europe to Gibraltar (this stops England from attacking the fleet in SZ 13 with 2 Fighters and a Bomber since the Fighters have no valid landing zones anymore)

2 Submarines, Transport, Destroyer from SZ 5 to SZ 7

leave the SZ 8 Submarine alone in SZ 8 (stops the English battleship from attacking SZ 7)

Now England cannot link with the Americans and Russians in SZ 12, nor can they effectively attack the German fleet.

However, America and England CAN hit SZ 7 with air power alone.

SOOO

Get yourself a bomber on Round 1 (since this bomber can immediately hit SZ 12) and put all this ships you can in SZ 13 (again taking Gibraltar for safety).

As for SZ 5 protection, a second destroyer works great (total so far 27 IPC leaving 13 for ground units) but you can get the carrier or a transport/submarine too (total 31 leaving 9 for ground units) if you are more comfortable with those.

Now, you have negated the entire Allied fleet without a gambit bid of 8 IPC for a bonus submarine in SZ 8. You’ve also secured Norway a bit if you’ve put another Inf and an AA Gun there. (England could still take it, but honestly, what English player wants to send fighters and bombers into Norway against an AA Gun on round 1?)

If you REALLY want a fleet…

Just buy AC + subs.

Merge into SZ 7 on G2.

With FIVE subs in SZ 5, UK is reluctant to move into SZ 6. Even with 2-3 transports and 2-4 subs, its risky to move into SZ6.

With 6 potential subs total, plus a DD BB AC and 2 fighters, you will be able to outlast the combined UK/USA attack on SZ7, should they choose to do so.

The more subs you build, the safer you will be in SZ7. However, more transports could force UK into London ground units. Which could make you even safer.

This assumes you have a 7 bid, which you have either placed in UKR, or one inf in UKR and 1 art in Lybia, which has caused USSR to avoid attacking UKR.

The only time I’ll take the Axis for less than 8 is if I’m pretty sure I’m playing a newbe. And if you are here reading these threads, your probibly not a newbe. :roll:

The only time I let someone take the axis with 8 IPC or more is if I think I’m playing a newbie, or someone who’s playing style I know and have already devised a way to beat them.

The potential to start the game with NO BRITISH FLEET in the Atlantic at all with an 8 IPC bid is too great and I don’t relish the thought of destroying a 10 IPC fighter in Russia if I do not have too.

I’ve allowed the Axis to have 9 IPC before, but the caveat on that was that they had to be ground units, not fleet.

I’ve played the Axis with an 8 IPC bid for a transport in SZ 50 before.  That was an interesting game! (3 Inf, Arm, Fig to Hawaii, 3 fig, bmb, dd, ss, 2 trn, bb, ac to SZ 52 and 7 inf, 2 fig to China on Round 1!)

@Cmdr:

The only time I let someone take the axis with 8 IPC or more is if I think I’m playing a newbie, or someone who’s playing style I know and have already devised a way to beat them.

The potential to start the game with NO BRITISH FLEET in the Atlantic at all with an 8 IPC bid is too great and I don’t relish the thought of destroying a 10 IPC fighter in Russia if I do not have too.

The extra German sub isn’t as glamorous as it appears.

(Even using Low Luck odds):
2sub 1ftr 1bmb vs 1bb 1sub 1trn has roughly 60% chance for either 1ftr 1bmb or just 1bmb surviving. A bit over 20% that all the Germans will die. And it can be hard to cover Norway so the Brits don’t suicide onto your bmb/ftr.

Meanwhile, you now have 4ftr left over. If you throw one at Africa to ensure at least decent odds of taking AE with a few ground units, then it’s 3ftr flying at the other British battleship.

Odds of survival:
23% 3ftr
55% 2ftr
22% 1ftr

Oh, and the AE landing (2inf 2arm 1ftr) looks like:
14% all
47% 2arm 1ftr
36% 1ftr (no take)
3% none (no take)

And a little over 10% of the time either the battleship or bb and trn will die because they don’t have a ftr or bmb to help kill the destroyer.

You can land in TJ with very good odds (even factoring in the average 1 in 10 times when the destroyer will destroy you), but then what’s to prevent the UK from scrambling 1bmb 2ftr to wipe out the Med fleet, likely at the cost of 1-2 fighters?

Ever since I’ve heard of the 1sub bid I’ve been trying to figure out how to make it work, but even though you take out both British battleships, you must lose half of your airforce or lose Africa. So I tend to just let the battleship be. Do that transport bid, yeah.

Jennifer says;
“I’ve played the Axis with an 8 IPC bid for a transport in SZ 50 before.  That was an interesting game! (3 Inf, Arm, Fig to Hawaii, 3 fig, bmb, dd, ss, 2 trn, bb, ac to SZ 52 and 7 inf, 2 fig to China on Round 1!)”

I have been doing this quite a lot lately myself, except I put the transport in sea zone 60, just east of Japan with the BB and the other transport. I then pull the artillery, tank and 2 Inf out of Japan with the fighter in Japan, together with every surface ship that can reach Hawaii and at least one more fighter from the other Carrier, (which has to go to the Solomons to pick up 2 fighters)  so that when playing Low Luck it is a sure thing to take Hawaii on J1. One fighter can support the attack on the island. :wink:

Hyogo, if you go with a sub bid it’s for fleet unification.
Fleet unification means you don’t land in Africa.

You take Gibraltar which will prevent UK from scrambling fighters, as well as your sea lion threatening UK end of G1.
German BB takes the UK BB hit, so no, you don’t lose another fighter there.
You sink the UK fleet, covering Norway is NOT hard for remaining planes, you already have 3 infantry there.

Summary is, If you buy a sub bid and try to land in africa, you are doing something very wrong.

Am I a fan of fleet unification? NO , but if you do it, do it right. I would not even attempt it without the sub bid.

As far as a transport bid goes and landing in Africa, I add that transport to the German Fleet in the Med instead. I take BOTH AE and TJ G1.
That has many effects like:

• Forcing UK to lose it’s bomber if it tries to retake AE with one less infantry. They can’t land it in TJ anymore and that Infantry is gone.
• opening the canal G1, which means UK either concede it or retake TJ, which weakens India.
• Forcing Russia to commit a minimum of forces in Caucasus to prevent amphibious assault.

I do like that Japan transport bid idea too but myself would prolly place it in range of India/Australia for a J1 take.

I like the Japan transport in SZ 50 because you can pick up island infantry leaving Japan’s units there where they can be retrieved with built transports.

Fleet unification without the extra submarine is perfectly possible and even a great pain to the allies.

HOWEVER, I’d rather move the SZ 5 fleet to SZ 7 and hope to trap the British fleet there where it can be easily sunk.

@Cmdr:

The only time I let someone take the axis with 8 IPC or more is if I think I’m playing a newbie, or someone who’s playing style I know and have already devised a way to beat them.

A totally wise tactic, Jen. But sadly, It leads you to play axis again and again and again, because all guys here are bidding 8 at least, and most of them 9 and even 10. If you want play allies, say, at least one of 5 games, you must bid at least 8, and better 9, thus risking the naval bid (both sub and trannie are good). I prefer risk and losing some game because it than playing axis 10 times a row. And it’s a pity, because I think the 2-players game is totally balanced with a 7 bid (with 4 or more players, no bid is needed, I think)

@Funcioneta:

@Cmdr:

The only time I let someone take the axis with 8 IPC or more is if I think I’m playing a newbie, or someone who’s playing style I know and have already devised a way to beat them.

A totally wise tactic, Jen. But sadly, It leads you to play axis again and again and again, because all guys here are bidding 8 at least, and most of them 9 and even 10. If you want play allies, say, at least one of 5 games, you must bid at least 8, and better 9, thus risking the naval bid (both sub and trannie are good). I prefer risk and losing some game because it than playing axis 10 times a row. And it’s a pity, because I think the 2-players game is totally balanced with a 7 bid (with 4 or more players, no bid is needed, I think)

If I may, where do you place your 7 bid. Is is UKR, or Lybia, a combination or somewhere else. And why is it totally balanced at 7 vs 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, or another number.

@squirecam:

If I may, where do you place your 7 bid. Is is UKR, or Lybia, a combination or somewhere else. And why is it totally balanced at 7 vs 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, or another number.

So anyways - 8’s a key number.  Once you can pop another Axis transport on the board, you can change the game a pretty good bit by either 1) allowing Germany good odds of taking and holding Anglo-Egypt past UK1 followed by G2 tank dash through Africa, or 2) speeding Japan progress in Asia with a transport bid, or 3) adding another German sub in the Atlantic to try to wipe out the British battleship/transport/Russian sub northwest of London - any number of more interesting plans.  But you do need 8 IPC for anything naval.

Depending on the bid placement rules - that is, if you can place more than one unit per territory, 6, 7, and 9 are interesting too.  6 gets you 2 infantry, 7 gets you infantry/artillery, 9 gets you three infantry.  These can help out at, say, Libya (to hit Anglo-Egypt on G1, freeing the German Med fleet to sail west for possible fleet unification G2), French Indochina (to challenge India or to help out against Sinkiang on J1), Ukraine (to prevent R1 Ukr/West Russia attack that has good odds of killing a German fighter), Belorussia (allowing Russia to hit Ukr/West Russia, but setting the stage for a hard early counter).

So why isn’t 5 good enough?  Because it’s just one ground unit, not two.  And once you start hitting 10 IPC, you’re talking about 2 inf 1 artillery or 2 tanks, or even a rogue fighter, and that’s really pretty good.

I personally think that if you’re allowed to place more than one bid unit in a territory, 8 is the limit.  Otherwise, you see stuff like 3 inf at French Indochina for Turbo India, or 3 inf at Libya for G2 definitive tank dash through Africa.

Func:

Understandable consideration.  Though, I’ve not really had too much of a problem getting the allies now and again since many of the players I play like to bid 6 IPC for the Axis (or 13-14 IPC if playing FIDA.)  Although, most of my games this summer have been tournament games at AAMC and that may have a lot to do with it.

Squire:

My 7 IPC bid generally ends up as Infantry, Artillery in Libya however, I have tried Armor to FIC and 2 IPC to Germany. (42 IPC allows Germany to start the game with 14 Infantry being built.  Sure you have a much lower chance at taking Egypt, but man does Russia have a problem on it’s hands by Germany 3!)

Bunnies (aka Hassenfeffer) makes a good point.  8 IPC for a German Transport in SZ 14 is just plain awesome.  This allows you to pose a significant invasion of Caucasus on Germany 1 if Ukraine is NOT taken by Russia and that almost forces Russia to sacrifice 2 armor one way or another. (I personally do not feel the 10 IPC for the armor is worth the 3 IPC for Ukraine, but many players do.)

Not to mention, the extra transport, while a threat to Caucasus, does not have to go there, you can easily take Trans-Jordan and Egypt or just Egypt or just Trans-Jordan closing or reversing the canal on Germany 1. (And let me tell you, reversing the canal is very wicked since Germany can now take India on Germany 2!  I love it when Germany gets India, Australia and New Zealand, maybe even Madagascar!)

10 IPC I have never seen in a full placement bid, though.  9 IPC I have and is generally used to bolster your defenses in Ukraine by 3 infantry making the Russian attack there all but impossible.

Jenn wrote:

Squire:

My 7 IPC bid generally ends up as Infantry, Artillery in Libya

BPW wrote:
@Bunnies:

So anyways - 8’s a key number.  Once you can pop another Axis transport on the board, you can change the game a pretty good bit…

Depending on the bid placement rules - that is, if you can place more than one unit per territory, 6, 7, and 9 are interesting too.  6 gets you 2 infantry, 7 gets you infantry/artillery, 9 gets you three infantry.

So why isn’t 5 good enough?  Because it’s just one ground unit, not two.

This was the point I was trying to get at. There is no “exact” number.

Jen would place 7 in Lybia. Ok. That makes Germany able to both take Egypt and sail the med fleet west.

But a 5 tank bid would do the same thing. The small possibility of UK getting 3 hits from Egypt is there, but it is not likely. So what else does it do?

Well, it make Egypt have 1 more unit vs the UK counter. Yet if UK is going KGF, they will bring bomber and fighter and 3 inf anyway. So you could still lose your Egypt force.

Sure, you could still sail the med fleet east, and bring 2 more units, but then what is the real difference between and inf/art and a tank bid. Just 1 unit.

But if that’s true (and it is) then there is really no difference between going “east” and having an art or inf bid, and a 7 bid. In one case, you bring 5 units to Egypt, in the second, you bring 6.

Are you saying that that ONE unit makes a real difference?

I know it doesnt, because I would place 1 inf in UKR and 1 art in Lybia. If UKR is attacked, the inf bid allows for the chance at 2 tanks vs 3 remaining. Yet that is no guarantee, and the inf bid there could easily be useless.

The point, which I have always said, is to be good enough to win as the axis against equal opponents 40-50% of the time, without a bid. The game is ALREADY set up to give the axis a 40% chance straight up between equals (or if new players, likely better % for the axis).

The bid unit generally makes one or two first round attacks a bit better or bit worse % wise. Thats with a 3 bid or a 7 bid.

I agree 8 is a transport, which allows MUCH different attacks than normal, and thus is too high.

But there is no real difference between a good players ability to win equally as the axis with a bid of 3 as a bid of 7. Its just a % help in one battle, and the game will turn on the results of MANY small battles, not one first round move.