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Allied counter to German fleet-unification
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@Crazy:
:roll:
Sooner or later they die,(the baltic fleet) they just all die, so why sink, ( pun intended ) more resources in there for nothing?
I mean, what is germanys’ main goal?
You had better say; “ToTake out Russia!”
Now how does an aircraft carrier in the Baltic on G1 help you to accomplish that?
On another note, I not sure what Dreck means, but it sure was funny the way No Love used it on what Bunnies P Wrath posted :lol: so +1 Karma to No Love :-DA G1 carrier helps plenty, as it delays the allies from landing a few turns.
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@Crazy:
:roll:
Sooner or later they die,(the baltic fleet) they just all die, so why sink, ( pun intended ) more resources in there for nothing?
I mean, what is germanys’ main goal?
You had better say; “ToTake out Russia!”
Now how does an aircraft carrier in the Baltic on G1 help you to accomplish that?
On another note, I not sure what Dreck means, but it sure was funny the way No Love used it on what Bunnies P Wrath posted :lol: so +1 Karma to No Love :-DA G1 carrier helps plenty, as it delays the allies from landing a few turns.
4 Artillery help more as it allows Germany to take Moscow before the British and Americans are set up to invade Europe at all. :P
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Thank you all for this lively discussion. I think that a suitable counter to this German move (no ships purchase and attack in WMD with BB, trn, sub and some air) is the purchase of 3 fighter for UK. Then collect US und UK ships in CEL (sz 8) and groundtroops in UK. Then bring the Russian sub to AZO stopping the German med-fleet to enter the Atlantic ocean.
Although I don’t like buying anything else than ships and inf playing this game (for axis side and allies side) I think that in this special situation the purchase of 3 fgt is legitim because it can be used against the German ships first and after against the German groundtroops. Last but not least it can be used for defense in MOS if really necessairy.
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@Cmdr:
@Crazy:
:roll:
Sooner or later they die,(the baltic fleet) they just all die, so why sink, ( pun intended ) more resources in there for nothing?
I mean, what is germanys’ main goal?
You had better say; “ToTake out Russia!”
Now how does an aircraft carrier in the Baltic on G1 help you to accomplish that?
On another note, I not sure what Dreck means, but it sure was funny the way No Love used it on what Bunnies P Wrath posted :lol: so +1 Karma to No Love :-DA G1 carrier helps plenty, as it delays the allies from landing a few turns.
4 Artillery help more as it allows Germany to take Moscow before the British and Americans are set up to invade Europe at all. :P
Not 4 art, nor 1 bomb, not at least in KGF (as much, 5 inf). Here, Germany never has a chance of taking Moscow (only Japan), and rarely will take and conserve Caucasus. AC aids defense (not having to protect tons of territories from landings), but maybe it’s better at G2 (because you need tons of inf at G1).
For KJF a AC can be offensive, because Germany will only have to face UK fleet, soviet sub and a token initial USA fleet. It can even force to shift to KGF.
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I was just saying 4 Artillery, in my opinion, are better than 1 Aircraft Carrier. Better still would be 10 infantry, fighter, IMHO. Or even better, again in my opinion, 5 infantry, fighter, bomber.
As for England, 2 bombers on UK 1 seem quite effective. However, if Fleet Unification is an issue, have you considered Aircraft Carrier, Submarine, 2 Infantry? This protects the SZ 8 fleet (Russian Submarine, 2 American Transports, American Destroyer, 2 British Transports, British Battleship, British Carrier, 2 British Fighters and a British Carrier) from a possible assault from Germany (5 Fighters, Bomber, Battleship, 3 Submarines, Transport, Destroyer - maybe 6 fighters and that’s assuming the SZ 5 fleet moved to SZ 6 or 7 on Germany 1.)
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You all describe Fleet Unification as if the only thing Germany would build is 16 ipc of ships on the first round. I find that utopic at most.
If you are gonna do fleet unification you make it worthwile. I’m repeating this, you sink UK BB, transport and red sub G1 with a sub bid…
You also buy 40 ipc of boats in Baltic fleet : + 1AC + 3 transport
Once you meet fleet G2, thats 1AC+2fgt, 1 BB, 5 transports, 2 subs, 1 destroyer. And thats one of the many combination of ships possible.
Under thoses conditions, fleet unification is worthwhile and since the only thing UK1 have left is a lone transport off the shore of eastern canada, i find it ill advised for UK to spend in boats or fighters/bombers while facing an imminent 5 transport drop right from turn 1 ( ya, the med transport is also in range when UK start turn 1).
I’d be really please to see UK build boats, fighters or bombers in thoses conditions. At that point as allies, you don’t ask yourself how i will counter that fleet but rather how i’ll prevent canadian shield while saving UK from amphibious invasion…
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@Mazer:
That’s because what you wrote was dreck. Utter dreck. I think I speak for all of us (and when I say “all of us” I mean even people not in this thread, even people who don’t play Axis and Allies, even people who can’t read), when I say we are all a little bit dumber for reading what you have written. I have read more insightful mattress tags. I have seen more brilliant strategies scribbled on a napkin with a crayon by a child trying to draw a rainbow pony.
I’m just sayin.
Peace ('cept for BPW)
Unfortunately, your calling attention to my plan is inconvenient at this time. By dumbing down the masses, I was going to be the only bunny on earth in position to take control of the World Order of Chipmunks during their planned uprising in 2011. Sadly, now that you have taken pre-emptive measures, I must respond in turn and destroy you.
P.S. I don’t understand how you decoded our secret mattress tag communications scheme, nor do I understand how you clued in to our subliminal mind control crayon experiment. But we will find answers to our questions, then the world shall tremble before the might of:
BUNNIES P WRATH!
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Part of the problem with a submarine bid in SZ 12 or where-ever is that many players bid 7 IPC or lower to prevent such moves. (Also to prevent 3 Infantry to Ukriane and other gambits.)
So let’s assume you do not have 2 Submarines in SZ 12 to use against SZ 2 and that you therefore cannot sink the SZ 2 fleet. (Even with two submarines, you have odds of success, but I’ve never seen the SZ 2 fleet actually get sunk.)
From here, if you want a continued German Atlantic Navy, then I recommend you build Aircraft Carrier, Industrial Complex, 3 infantry on Germany 1. (The Industrial Complex for W. Europe thereby allowing you to reinforce your fleets as needed without the need to sail to SZ 5 or SZ 14.)
BTW, if Germany DOES get an 8 IPC Bid for a Submarine to hit SZ 2 with, Russia should take out Norway and ignore Ukraine. This ends Germany’s threat to SZ 2. (3 infantry, armor, 2 fighters - lose a fighter, and build one on Round 1 to replace it.)
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Well, if only to see Russia try to take Norway, i’ll buy that sub and kill that Russian Karelia landed plane fast :P
But thanks, this points me the need to not group the 2 subs together in my bid but rather place the sub bid next to Western Europe ( if placing it next to own territory is allowed, i think so at least) still in range. At worst if Russia succeed in Norway, you send the initial sub against lone UK transport and bring back the sub bid to Baltic to reinforce it.
At that point i would only buy one more transport for baltic and start pounding Russia hard begining with Karelia fighter, swapping territories after that would cost them an arm and a leg and i prolly still have Ukraine which please me very much.
But eh, i grant you that you did prevent fleet unification if you were playing me ;) It’s just that the price you pay for it is kinda heavy.
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@Corbeau:
But thanks, this points me the need to not group the 2 subs together in my bid
Most bid rules require that newly placed bid units be in a territory that already contains units belonging to that power.
There’s a lotta fun stuff you can do if that restriction is lifted.
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Well, your faster than i edited :P
I thought sea zone next to own territory was ok, anyways, if worst comes to worst, can still send both subs against USA destroyer and 2 transports. Probably will knock out the 2 transports and mess allies a bit.
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@Corbeau:
Well, if only to see Russia try to take Norway, i’ll buy that sub and kill that Russian Karelia landed plane fast :P
That’s why I made a point to say that one Russian plane dies in the attempt to take Norway so as to not give you a gift kill later. (Also makes liberating Norway that much harder with Germany if you attempt it.)
Also, Bunnies raises a point, there are often times restrictions on what you can bid. FIDA being an example where you are required to retain half the bid as IPCs to be spent during your turn instead of placing all units on the board. Another method of preventing the Submarine bid (or even worse, the Transport to SZ 14 bid!)
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I would not play axis and even less attempt Fleet Unification under 8 ipcs bid. :-P
If people wants to apply restrictions and feel they are needed, i feel free to let them play axis under such for an easy kill :evil: One things for sure, preventing Fleet Unification under such is an easy and sure thing.
Standard game nowadays are 8 ipc bid for axis and I don’t mean offense by saying my exemple is a pretty common bid.
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Well, under FIDA standard bid is closer to 14-15 IPC with 7 IPC for units immediately and 7 or 8 IPC for builds later on your turn.
Standard LHTR bids I have seen so far have averaged closer to 5-7 IPC for units. 8 IPCs are very rare because it forces the Allies to make sub-standard moves and no allied player wants to be in that situation, so they either bid 8 themselves (getting the allies) or 7 (getting the axis.)
Anyway, Fleet Unification without 8 IPC is not so hard.
Battleship, Transport from SZ 14 to SZ 13
Infantry from S. Europe to Gibraltar (this stops England from attacking the fleet in SZ 13 with 2 Fighters and a Bomber since the Fighters have no valid landing zones anymore)2 Submarines, Transport, Destroyer from SZ 5 to SZ 7
leave the SZ 8 Submarine alone in SZ 8 (stops the English battleship from attacking SZ 7)
Now England cannot link with the Americans and Russians in SZ 12, nor can they effectively attack the German fleet.
However, America and England CAN hit SZ 7 with air power alone.
SOOO
Get yourself a bomber on Round 1 (since this bomber can immediately hit SZ 12) and put all this ships you can in SZ 13 (again taking Gibraltar for safety).
As for SZ 5 protection, a second destroyer works great (total so far 27 IPC leaving 13 for ground units) but you can get the carrier or a transport/submarine too (total 31 leaving 9 for ground units) if you are more comfortable with those.
Now, you have negated the entire Allied fleet without a gambit bid of 8 IPC for a bonus submarine in SZ 8. You’ve also secured Norway a bit if you’ve put another Inf and an AA Gun there. (England could still take it, but honestly, what English player wants to send fighters and bombers into Norway against an AA Gun on round 1?)
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If you REALLY want a fleet…
Just buy AC + subs.
Merge into SZ 7 on G2.
With FIVE subs in SZ 5, UK is reluctant to move into SZ 6. Even with 2-3 transports and 2-4 subs, its risky to move into SZ6.
With 6 potential subs total, plus a DD BB AC and 2 fighters, you will be able to outlast the combined UK/USA attack on SZ7, should they choose to do so.
The more subs you build, the safer you will be in SZ7. However, more transports could force UK into London ground units. Which could make you even safer.
This assumes you have a 7 bid, which you have either placed in UKR, or one inf in UKR and 1 art in Lybia, which has caused USSR to avoid attacking UKR.
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The only time I’ll take the Axis for less than 8 is if I’m pretty sure I’m playing a newbe. And if you are here reading these threads, your probibly not a newbe. :roll:
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The only time I let someone take the axis with 8 IPC or more is if I think I’m playing a newbie, or someone who’s playing style I know and have already devised a way to beat them.
The potential to start the game with NO BRITISH FLEET in the Atlantic at all with an 8 IPC bid is too great and I don’t relish the thought of destroying a 10 IPC fighter in Russia if I do not have too.
I’ve allowed the Axis to have 9 IPC before, but the caveat on that was that they had to be ground units, not fleet.
I’ve played the Axis with an 8 IPC bid for a transport in SZ 50 before. That was an interesting game! (3 Inf, Arm, Fig to Hawaii, 3 fig, bmb, dd, ss, 2 trn, bb, ac to SZ 52 and 7 inf, 2 fig to China on Round 1!)
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@Cmdr:
The only time I let someone take the axis with 8 IPC or more is if I think I’m playing a newbie, or someone who’s playing style I know and have already devised a way to beat them.
The potential to start the game with NO BRITISH FLEET in the Atlantic at all with an 8 IPC bid is too great and I don’t relish the thought of destroying a 10 IPC fighter in Russia if I do not have too.
The extra German sub isn’t as glamorous as it appears.
(Even using Low Luck odds):
2sub 1ftr 1bmb vs 1bb 1sub 1trn has roughly 60% chance for either 1ftr 1bmb or just 1bmb surviving. A bit over 20% that all the Germans will die. And it can be hard to cover Norway so the Brits don’t suicide onto your bmb/ftr.Meanwhile, you now have 4ftr left over. If you throw one at Africa to ensure at least decent odds of taking AE with a few ground units, then it’s 3ftr flying at the other British battleship.
Odds of survival:
23% 3ftr
55% 2ftr
22% 1ftrOh, and the AE landing (2inf 2arm 1ftr) looks like:
14% all
47% 2arm 1ftr
36% 1ftr (no take)
3% none (no take)And a little over 10% of the time either the battleship or bb and trn will die because they don’t have a ftr or bmb to help kill the destroyer.
You can land in TJ with very good odds (even factoring in the average 1 in 10 times when the destroyer will destroy you), but then what’s to prevent the UK from scrambling 1bmb 2ftr to wipe out the Med fleet, likely at the cost of 1-2 fighters?
Ever since I’ve heard of the 1sub bid I’ve been trying to figure out how to make it work, but even though you take out both British battleships, you must lose half of your airforce or lose Africa. So I tend to just let the battleship be. Do that transport bid, yeah.
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Jennifer says;
“I’ve played the Axis with an 8 IPC bid for a transport in SZ 50 before. That was an interesting game! (3 Inf, Arm, Fig to Hawaii, 3 fig, bmb, dd, ss, 2 trn, bb, ac to SZ 52 and 7 inf, 2 fig to China on Round 1!)”I have been doing this quite a lot lately myself, except I put the transport in sea zone 60, just east of Japan with the BB and the other transport. I then pull the artillery, tank and 2 Inf out of Japan with the fighter in Japan, together with every surface ship that can reach Hawaii and at least one more fighter from the other Carrier, (which has to go to the Solomons to pick up 2 fighters) so that when playing Low Luck it is a sure thing to take Hawaii on J1. One fighter can support the attack on the island. :wink:
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Hyogo, if you go with a sub bid it’s for fleet unification.
Fleet unification means you don’t land in Africa.You take Gibraltar which will prevent UK from scrambling fighters, as well as your sea lion threatening UK end of G1.
German BB takes the UK BB hit, so no, you don’t lose another fighter there.
You sink the UK fleet, covering Norway is NOT hard for remaining planes, you already have 3 infantry there.Summary is, If you buy a sub bid and try to land in africa, you are doing something very wrong.
Am I a fan of fleet unification? NO , but if you do it, do it right. I would not even attempt it without the sub bid.
As far as a transport bid goes and landing in Africa, I add that transport to the German Fleet in the Med instead. I take BOTH AE and TJ G1.
That has many effects like:- Forcing UK to lose it’s bomber if it tries to retake AE with one less infantry. They can’t land it in TJ anymore and that Infantry is gone.
- opening the canal G1, which means UK either concede it or retake TJ, which weakens India.
- Forcing Russia to commit a minimum of forces in Caucasus to prevent amphibious assault.
I do like that Japan transport bid idea too but myself would prolly place it in range of India/Australia for a J1 take.
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