Or Coyote if you are a native of this continent…
The unknowable and the non-existent are indistinguishable.
Posted by: froodster
Insert Quote
The unknowable and the non-existent are indistinguishable.
does that statement really make sense to you?
It does to me…
If you care to describe the differences, with a compare and contrast between them, I am willing to read it…
scientifically or philosophically?
haven’t we proven that the speed of light can be changed and does that make einstien’s theorum invalid?
currently the universal constant is unknowable but does that mean it is non-existant?
this is an over simplification i agree but don’t we as humans tend to over complicate things enough already
Perhaps not indistinguishable. My point is that nothing meaningful can really be known about either, if it is unknowable.
Put another way: Is there a God? I don’t know. Is there an angry unicorn on the dark side of the moon? I don’t know that either. This illustrates both that neither “fact” can be tested, and also that neither fact has much impact on anything else - both are irrelevant possibilities.
If something can’t be tested, that means it does not interact in any consistent, meaningful way with the rest of reality.
The universal constant is something that is hinted at by experimental observations. No observations point toward God’s existence other than wishy-washy ones like “nature is beautiful/complex”. MAYBE it points toward an intelligent creator, though I don’t think so, but it certainly does not support elaborate ideas like the Trinity, Heaven, Hell, angels, souls etc.
Except that there was a book that i once heard about supposedly inspired by God which suggests that there may be a heaven and a hell. It also makes mention of angels and all of Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and the creator God.
Also there are many millions of people - yet to be accurately described as psychotic (at least according to the DSM-IV) who would claim to interact positively with God. They are more than happy (i have found) to communicate this with you.
you can chose not to believe in God if you want, he still believes in you :wink:
some people find comfort in believing they were derived from pond scum and bacteria (where did the bacteria come from?, oh yeah from rocks), that’s their perrogative. i choose to believe differently
some people face the hurdles and obstacles of this life with the thought that when this body perishes they feed the worms and that is it, i choose to believe differently
@cystic:
Except that there was a book that i once heard about supposedly inspired by God which suggests that there may be a heaven and a hell. It also makes mention of angels and all of Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and the creator God.
Also there are many millions of people - yet to be accurately described as psychotic (at least according to the DSM-IV) who would claim to interact positively with God. They are more than happy (i have found) to communicate this with you.
Yeah, but there are other ancient texts about other Gods etc too. And the people who wrote them had no more first-hand evidence than I do.
So believe in the other gods. After all, God told us to worship no other god but him. Thus, there is sufficient context to believe there are other gods. Personally I think those other gods are demons and satans. But if you want to worship the great and mighty tree spirit or a planet named Mars, go for it. Just don’t try and tell me on Judgement day you didn’t know.
I am amazed that so many Christians miss (or deliberately ignore) the part in Genesis that speaks of the Elohim (spelling?), which is PLURAL and refers to other Gods besides Yahweh.
If you take the Bible as literal truth, then God himself declares that other Gods are real and exist, and that God is just concerned with that tiny patch of real-estate called Eden while the other Gods have everything outside of Eden.
@ncscswitch:
I am amazed that so many Christians miss (or deliberately ignore) the part in Genesis that speaks of the Elohim (spelling?), which is PLURAL and refers to other Gods besides Yahweh.
If you take the Bible as literal truth, then God himself declares that other Gods are real and exist, and that God is just concerned with that tiny patch of real-estate called Eden while the other Gods have everything outside of Eden.
Isn’t that basically what I just said in the post immediately preceeding yours? That great and mighty satans exist and demons run around getting worshippers but God is the victor and his kingdom will reign supreme over all existance?
Ah no, nor does what I said bear any resemblence to your post. I never mentioned demons or God coming out “victorious”
What I DID say is that even the Bible acknowledges other Gods as being real and in control of things otuside of Eden.
It doesn’t acknowledge they had any control. Just that other gods (lower case) exist. And my theory is that they are demons, fallen angels, satans, etc.
@ncscswitch:
What I DID say is that even the Bible acknowledges other Gods as being real and in control of things otuside of Eden.
where does it say that? (i don’t not belive you i am just wondering where)
Genesis, Chapter 1, verse 1 (Hebrew version)
1st Commandment (Hebrew Version)
Several others.
You can see some of the Elohim debate and discussion at Wiki, where the singular usage of Elohim apparently only exists if your read the Bible to support ONE God, and then ONLY for Genesis Chapter 1, Verse 1. In every other use of Elohim, in the Bible and elsewehre it is PLURAL.
There are references to other gods in the Bible as well - Book of Job (the sons of God had a meeting with God and Satan shows up), and i think it was Romans - one of the books of Paul - where Paul states that there are other (g)ods, but goes on to demonstrate that Jehovah is the one true (G)od.
Thanks CC, did not feel like trudging out the entire laundry list (since most of them I do not have memorized). I tend to jsut go with the two “biggies” that everyone is familiar with :-)
I believe “Elohim” means Lord of Hosts, those being the hosts of heavenly beings.
One thing I learned in studying the Old testament is that the Israelites were not always monotheistic (belief in only one god). Rather, they were like other tribes in the area, believing in multiple deities for harvests, rivers, etc… and also that each tribe had its own gods, who fought each other just as the tribes would fight each other. Winning a war would show that your god was stronger, and expanded your god’s geographic domain.
Eventually, the Israelites started saying that their God was god above all other gods, but the other gods still existed. Finally, this morphed into a belief that Yahweh was the only god that actually existed.
Understanding that gods were seen as belonging to different tribes explains why worshiping a different God was taken so seriously - it was essentially treason.
However, despite believing in only one God, the Israelites had a bunch of minor gods that didn’t really fit with monotheism. So these were re-interpreted as servants, or Angels, to the one true God. Basically, ancient Israelite paganism gradually evolved into monotheism.
There is an interesting story - i believe in either Kings or Chronicles - where God employs the use of a “lying spirit” - sounds like one of those free-lance Gods like Loki/Mercury/Hermes/whatever in order to thwart one of the kings of Israel. I wish i was not so busy/lazy to trudge out all of the details, but i thought it kind of funny.
