USA Crush-Turtle or Die

@ZiNK said in USA Crush-Turtle or Die:

I think I’ll just smack it with everything I got

yea absolutely how I’d i do it.

Might not be the best idea, but that’s how I’d do it :)

Why the hate against RL Germans?

And also hi, I played against your strategy today, and first things first, yes, the guy made a few mistakes. But this strat has massive potential, and I will actually sit down and study it and maybe improve it. But still I find there are a lot of assumptions here…

Nobody sees it coming? After the first G and J turn it reeks against the wind and any half way decent Allies player would take preperations and change course. Japan doesnt usually play like this and deliberately closes doors like this with no reason. At least assume that Hawaiian conquest will be forced. Maybe its true that many people auto pilot their buys, but then they are bad players. Every game is different. Also, spam Inf in America? Thats not the solution to the puzzle. Yes, you need lots of land units at one point, but with only inf spam youre vulnerable to big convoy raids, followed by indefinite fleet domination. I would be careful with that. Also, there are alternatives to Taranto, that work in this scenario. For example I played a 92 stack against this. But I admit, Britains first turn was probably the hardest this entire game. Russia will adapt and take Scandinavia and iraq the moment they enter war. I moved the American fleet to the Atlantic once Hawaii was taken (and Japan had brought everything so its impossible to overcome) and I dont see why any American player would not do that if that happens (update below, situational. In this situation it was probably the best to fight the German navy instead of the Japanese). And with 24 bidding the Allies can do a lot of things that can make this way harder (common bid things that are not based on the knowledge that this strategy is being played!).

Anyway, scary strat, will try and study, thanks for the write up.
And don’t get me wrong, I think you’re a good player. For the fact alone that you play and optimise non standard strategies. All I’m saying is basically that given my points and my own experience playing G40 online with people, that I doubt that the level of play online is actually that high. The 90% success rate would surprise me against good players. But that’s why I will test and see how well it can be countered.

@kaihlhac said in USA Crush-Turtle or Die:

I moved the American fleet to the Atlantic once Hawaii was taken (and Japan had brought everything so its impossible to overcome) and I dont see why any American player would not do that if that happens.

So if Japan gets 4 VC they win. That is Hong Kong, Philippines, Hawaii and Australia. So if you move the US fleet to the Atlantic and build there, what is to stop Japan from going south and taking Australia and winning the game?

@squirecam Me having Manila, Hong Kong and Shanghai. Neglegting China like that comes with a price. Also, it takes 2 turns to get from Hawaii to Sydney. Time enough to come back and take back Hawaii/Build and take back Hawaii.

@SuperbattleshipYamato No he had no idea until the very end. Just had strong fundamentals. And I wasn’t very polished , and missing some combos

@squirecam said in USA Crush-Turtle or Die:

I moved the American fleet to the Atlantic once Hawaii was taken (and Japan had brought everything so its impossible to overcome) and I dont see why any American player would not do that if that happens.

I just wanted to give an update, I tried around myself and depending on the Axis moves, there are possibilities to contest the Japanese navy. It has to do with complicated back and forth blocking between Japan and USA, but I achieved to destroy almost the entire Japanese navy (while still losing Hawaii tho). Just wanted to put this out here, so I correct myself, I do see why an American player would keep the navy in the pacific. But it depends on the execution of the Jap player and the dice. Problem is the Atlantic tho, where I was able to assert full dominance with Germany over the Atlantic in the meanwhile.

@kaihlhac said in USA Crush-Turtle or Die:

@squirecam said in USA Crush-Turtle or Die:

I moved the American fleet to the Atlantic once Hawaii was taken (and Japan had brought everything so its impossible to overcome) and I dont see why any American player would not do that if that happens.

I just wanted to give an update, I tried around myself and depending on the Axis moves, there are possibilities to contest the Japanese navy. It has to do with complicated back and forth blocking between Japan and USA, but I achieved to destroy almost the entire Japanese navy (while still losing Hawaii tho). Just wanted to put this out here, so I correct myself, I do see why an American player would keep the navy in the pacific. But it depends on the execution of the Jap player and the dice. Problem is the Atlantic tho, where I was able to assert full dominance with Germany over the Atlantic in the meanwhile.

And this is why you don’t attack J1. Because attacking allows the US to block you from Hawaii or the west coast when waiting allows you to sail into the HI sea zone and you can’t be blocked.

@squirecam Interesting idea, I will test around with that.

@Galendae

Tried another game, this time with just the Pacific board. Japan… did not do too well.

I’ll admit I chalk that up to some mistakes on their end, but I feel like the end result would be similar, even if it took longer:

When prepared, the US can prevent a Japanese takeover of San Francisco, no matter how hard it would be, while the UK, China, and ANZAC eat at Japan’s income in Asia.

2024-5-25-World-War-II-Pacific-1940-2nd-Edition Human.tsvg

@SuperbattleshipYamato

Working with only pacific does change the game a lot.
There is a lot less US income but also only 1 place to spend it all so the US would not be surprised that quickly.

This strat relies on surprise and getting your opponent offguard.
Just a buy of subs round 1 and 2 will finish off any ideas germany will have in the atlantic really quickly. And the same for japan.

@shadowhawk said in USA Crush-Turtle or Die:

@SuperbattleshipYamato

Working with only pacific does change the game a lot.
There is a lot less US income but also only 1 place to spend it all so the US would not be surprised that quickly.

This strat relies on surprise and getting your opponent offguard.
Just a buy of subs round 1 and 2 will finish off any ideas germany will have in the atlantic really quickly. And the same for japan.

I think this is not a strategy by itself. I think you set up for a possibility, and if certain things occur then you try it. But you don’t go into a game planning to do this.

@squirecam said in USA Crush-Turtle or Die:

@shadowhawk said in USA Crush-Turtle or Die:

@SuperbattleshipYamato

Working with only pacific does change the game a lot.
There is a lot less US income but also only 1 place to spend it all so the US would not be surprised that quickly.

This strat relies on surprise and getting your opponent offguard.
Just a buy of subs round 1 and 2 will finish off any ideas germany will have in the atlantic really quickly. And the same for japan.

I think this is not a strategy by itself. I think you set up for a possibility, and if certain things occur then you try it. But you don’t go into a game planning to do this.

Its something the axis have to plan for and execute from round 1. Thats the whole point. Germany investing heavy into navy 2 rounds basically locks you into this strat.
Japan attacking hawai and buying fleet also pushes towards this.

@shadowhawk said in USA Crush-Turtle or Die:

@squirecam said in USA Crush-Turtle or Die:

@shadowhawk said in USA Crush-Turtle or Die:

@SuperbattleshipYamato

Working with only pacific does change the game a lot.
There is a lot less US income but also only 1 place to spend it all so the US would not be surprised that quickly.

This strat relies on surprise and getting your opponent offguard.
Just a buy of subs round 1 and 2 will finish off any ideas germany will have in the atlantic really quickly. And the same for japan.

I think this is not a strategy by itself. I think you set up for a possibility, and if certain things occur then you try it. But you don’t go into a game planning to do this.

Its something the axis have to plan for and execute from round 1. Thats the whole point. Germany investing heavy into navy 2 rounds basically locks you into this strat.
Japan attacking hawai and buying fleet also pushes towards this.

I disagree about being locked into anything. Your plans should be fluid and change with what is developing. Yes if you attack right away things are baked in. I don’t attack J1 or J2 usually.

@squirecam

Personally speaking from the last game, Japan did have a chance to rush towards Australia early from Hawaii if they desired.

But yeah, there are generally limited options based on the strategy. Your plan should be adaptable, but thar doesn’t mean it can be.

And if you don’t attack J1 or J2, then this strategy won’t work.

@SuperbattleshipYamato said in USA Crush-Turtle or Die:

@squirecam

Personally speaking from the last game, Japan did have a chance to rush towards Australia early from Hawaii if they desired.

But yeah, there are generally limited options based on the strategy. Your plan should be adaptable, but thar doesn’t mean it can be.

And if you don’t attack J1 or J2, then this strategy won’t work.

Please explain how not attacking J1 defeats the strategy of attacking the USA.

@squirecam

The plan shown above seems to depend heavily on Japan attacking early when the US is arguably at its weakest, alongside ample coordination with the European Axis to conduct a one-two punch. As evident in the games posted above, a delay of just a few turns closes the narrow window the Axis have for a truly decisive victory.

@SuperbattleshipYamato said in USA Crush-Turtle or Die:

@squirecam

The plan shown above seems to depend heavily on Japan attacking early when the US is arguably at its weakest, alongside ample coordination with the European Axis to conduct a one-two punch. As evident in the games posted above, a delay of just a few turns closes the narrow window the Axis have for a truly decisive victory.

So when you attack J1 you lose surprise and allow the USA to get its bonus. Combined with Japan not getting money in China and the UK and AZ getting money islands and bonuses, you are really short on income.

Not attacking limits the USA to 3 units per factory. No bonuses. They can’t screen in Hawaii. And they can’t advance in the Atlantic.

If your goal is to take the USA, set up for it. Don’t give them the money advantage.

@squirecam

Fair points. Wanna try it?

@SuperbattleshipYamato said in USA Crush-Turtle or Die:

@squirecam

Fair points. Wanna try it?

So I’m not trying to “take” the USA. I’m just trying to eliminate the US fleet if given the chance so that an invasion is theoretically possible should things play out that way and with what happens in the Atlantic. I’m also not saying you can win by turn 4. So I’m not sure that a game proves anything since you “know” I’m trying for a U.S. invasion. But I’m willing to run a test here by giving you my moves and you can post your round by round response.

Assume the follow for the first test:

1 - use BM mod. Since people say a 60+ bid is needed I don’t want this test invalidated because we are using a smaller bid.
2- use a 16 or 18 bid. Fighter Scotland and a des/sub somewhere. I suggest a sub in med for an assumed Taranto.
3 - Russia can’t stack Amur. Otherwise Japan would just attack them and the purpose of the test is lost.
4- USA should attempt to stay in the pacific. If they flee and just build everything in the Atlantic then Japan should take Hawaii and Australia and try to win that way.
5- I expect you to “win” this since you should stop the US from falling. In a real game the axis would likely break off the attack and do other things. Also the strategy is to be flexible, not to take out the US.
6- I suggest you low luck this or “modify” the results for the average outcome.

With that said, for G1 buy a carrier, destroyer and sub. Use the BB to attack Scotland sea zone with subs and 2/2 planes and retreat. Attack other British sea zone with the same 2 bombers and other air. You want a 70% win rate even with a scramble in 110. Assume sub and des kill each other in 106.

Take France (no air) and southern France with 2 mech tank and fighter. (Yes I know it’s BM mod but there is no Vichy normally so we need to take it rather than Normandy so it’s “normal”) land fighter in Italy. Take Yugoslavia with everything else and land tac in Italy for 3 plane scramble potential in Italy. Move troops in germany to Slovakia but you can keep 2 back if you like for transport next turn. Drop Denmark troops in Norway. Activate neutrals.

For Japan buy carrier and transport. Take the 4 Chinese territories and Okinawa transport to take Soviet far east. You can use bombers but you should want 8 air in Japan, 2 more on the carrier and 6 on carriers in Hawaii. That should leave bombers and one fighter/tac combo left for China attacks if necessary. You want to have 44 ipc next turn.

I would normally stack in Carolines. Normally this allows for Japan to switch on J2 or J3 and take the money islands. But since we are “taking” US, move everything else to Hawaii. Leave the transports back though (normally in Carolines too). What fleet can’t reach stacks in Japan sea zone.

Run through that a bit and tell me your response. If you Taranto, do not scramble. If Taranto, Italy should take out French fleet. If you don’t Taranto, then we will discuss.

@squirecam

Then what you’re proposing is a different strategy with completely different parameters and goals than the original one posted at the beginning. While that’s perfectly fine, you’ll have to admit that this is the case and that what you propose may not necessarily work in the parameters and goals in the original post.

That being said, I’m happy to test it out. I’ll tell you my moves in a moment.