Should the Deustchland class pocket battleships be called battlecruisers?

There is an interesting report by the US Office of Naval Intelligence on the Battle of the River Plate, with quite a few photos and ship damage reports.  It can be found here, at the Combined Arms Research Library Digital Library, and downloaded for free.

http://cgsc.contentdm.oclc.org

As for a battle between the Admiral Scheer and a Baltimore–class cruiser, I would bet on the Baltimore-class ship, unless the Scheer got some early lucky hits on gun turrets, as the Spee did on the HMS Exeter.  The USS Salt Lake City, one of our two oldest heavy cruisers in World War 2, with an older gunfire control system than the Baltimores, was able to score hits on the IJN Nachi at ranges in excess of 21,000 yards.  The following comment from the ONI report applies to the Spee’s gunnery.

German shooting was described as quite good, initially, but the accuracy fell off rapidly.
(a) 11-inch opened with two 3-gun salvos, very close and on in deflection.
(b) 5.9-inch also fired at Exeter; no definite hits determined, but many splinters came aboard.

The Italian ones are new to me, only because they were never discussed.  However there are plenty of records of the ones in action during the Phillipines and South Pacific Campaigns (JFK, etc.) which gave them plenty of heroic press.

@barnee

Well, the battle takes place during daytime, the most favourable conditions. I read the article in my research, and the battle really was tough to decide. Many people point to Leyte Gulf as proof of how bad Japanese battleships are. But one of the reasons for the Japanese failure off Samar was because of the Japanese using armour piercing shells, which often flew right through the unarmored American ships without exploding. Mistakes in commanding the Japanese ships was another reason for why the American fleet was not destroyed. As I said, it was really hard to decide, and it was very close. As you noted though, the Japanese has inferior radar and sighting, the Japanese had superior armour and had just so many guns that it would have eventually have hit several times, especially if the Missouri went to point blank range, like how I thought the battle would have worked out. It honestly could have gone either way.

@wittmann:

Thanks Noll. I guessed it was something like that. Should have realised it had to be Alexandria. Where else would our frogmen have sunk anything?
I forgot it was two Battleships that were sunk.
Do you subscribe to the Italian connection in the Novorossiysk incident?
It is nice to think it could be true.

I seriously don’t know and I can’t tell. I’d like to think so tho’.

“The encirclement was complete by 25 March with 6 Soviet armies (3rd Guards Tank, 4th Tank, 1st Guards, 18th, 38th and 40th Armies) applying pressure to Hube’s force. At the same time, the external encirclement, held by 13th and 60th Armies and 1st Tank Army, was designed to force the German 4. Panzerarmee and 8. Armee back and unable to attempt a rescue operation. It is at this point that 1. Panzerarmee was probably very lucky to have Generaloberst Hube in command and Field Marshal Erich von Manstein in command of Army Group South. Both men were proponents of “mobile defensive” operations which allowed a large force to attempt a break through of encircling forces while maintaining a strong backwards defensive posture from rear guard units.” (source :Stephen Bernich from a diffrent Forum)

What would have constituted a TOTAL victory at Kamenets -Podolsk for the Soviet Army?…

Did the Germans escape Destrustion or just evade a Russian victory?..

Your Thoughts…

Ships come with a crew and to compare ships has nothing to do with crews and also has nothing to so with comparing SHIPS.  I’m glad you agree as well!

http://www.combinedfleet.com/baddest.htm

And this site has done something similar, (which obviously does not compare crews because this is a comparison of ships) concluded rightfully that Iowa class BB is the best ship all around based on all basic stats.

so when do we get to find out the results?

@RJL518:

i sometimes wonder what would have happened if Germany had put together a massive battle fleet in the Atlantic like Japan did in the Pacific

They  didn’t have the naval knowhow that Japan and US had. The Germans had plans for building carrier vessels, but they weren’t able to do it.

But if they had done it, it would be much easier to knock out UK pretty early, and then Barbarossa also would be easier, but far from guaranteed.