Turtling vs Counter-attacking as Soviet Union?

@victoryfirst
Personally I’ve found that turtling just prolongs the conquer of Russia. But counterattacking seems to be a rather effective method. If you can catch the Germans off guard and break through the line it will really mess them up. Turtling will ultimately result in Moscow being captured, but counterattacking definitely seems to up my chances of surviving at least long enough for the other allied to land in mainland Europe.

@victoryfirst

I agree with Tin 100% on this.

The Russian Counter-Attacking strategy is really your best bet as the Soviet Union. Now the only thing that should be mentioned is that this will delay the Germans, but it won’t stop them.

There is physically nothing the Soviet Union Player can do to completely stop the German attack, reverse it, and start to make headway towards Berlin, BY THEMSELVES (that is youre playing against someone that actually knows what they’re doing).

You just can’t stop Germany, they make more money then you, they mobilize faster than you, and they can move quicker then you, so delaying is really you’re only option here. And the idea, doesn’t matter what scenario it is, is to delay Germany to G8. Assuming Germany does a G3 Barbarossa, you’ll have plenty of time to build up, and you’re going to want to do the counter attacking strategy. But that’s not gonna stop Germany, since you wont be accounting for your losses so you’re going to make multiple fall back lines toward your industrial production hubs. The idea is that the typical time for Germany to arrive in Moscow is G6, that is the earliest they can physically arrive if they attacked on G3. The sweet spot to arrive is G7, and G8 is a running a tad bit behind schedule but still getting the job done. As the Soviet Union, you can take advantage of this. By counter attacking the Germans, you’ll be delaying them from getting to Moscow likely toward G7, now here’s the ace up the sleeve. You’re Siberian infantry. Assuming you’ve been moving all 18 of your infantry and 2 AAA guns out West, 6 of your infantry will arrive in Moscow, one turn short of which they will arrive. If you can delay them 1 more turn then that will give you’re other 12 and 2 AAA guns time to get to Moscow, with a total of 18 infantry on Moscow, which is going to be a HUGE factor in swaying the battle of Moscow, and just for detailed report, that’s 68 IPC’s worth of defending units you didn’t have to spend, if you can get all these infantry to Moscow by the time the Germans are arriving, then this can/will heavily sway the fight in your favor allowing you to prioritize tanks and fighters to get at the German armory.

But I can confidently say that bottling up on Moscow with 70 infantry (yes, I’ve seen this happen, people do it), isn’t gonna get you anywhere. Because what comes with bottling up may give you a win in Moscow, but a loss in the war, having completely lost Stalingrad and Leningrad and all your money all together. Though in some of General Hand Grenade’s previous posts he’s stated that the Germans will be ‘getting destroyed’ by the Russian counter attack, which by no means will happen, since even in his own video, his counter attack didn’t even kill all the German units going for Leningrad, but regardless, you can see where I’m coming from.

@victoryfirst

G1 Barbarossa functions like G3 Barbarossa, if you have less units Germany will be attacking with less units.

Counter attacking this time around on a G1 Barbarossa won’t work, so you’re gonna have to stick to consolidation.

What Germany most likely will do on a G1 Barbarossa is go for the Southern portion of the Soviet Union. They have to solely and simply because they don’t have enough troops and armory to be able to send to both the north and the south, so they’re gonna be making a break for Moscow, use this to your advantage. You can build up forces on Leningrad to send into Finland and Norway as well as make a threat on the German side of Poland to stop their advancing. Germany will suffer attrition much faster then expected on a G1 Barbarossa, so you’re going to have to play your cards correctly and keep them at bay in Besarrabia and Ukraine.

@thedesertfox
I totally agree. And it’s also crucial that you understand how, when, and where to counterattack. Being the Russian player you don’t get many shots so you need to hit hard and ensure a victory, or a massive blow to the German war machine. You can’t afford to lose unit after unit from counterattacks with little odds of success. To do this more effectively you should try and predict where the German player will go-of course I don’t mean move all your troops to one area, but just a couple troops can greatly change the odds of a counterattack.

@tin-can-of-the-sea

Indeed, counter attacking is gonna cause you to lose troops either way, typically I like to do it in lines, set up a counter attacking on the German border, move back, setup a couter attack and Ukraine, move back, then set up a counter attack at Moscow, and by that time the German Player’s armies will be bogged down to the point where you’re able to make a push back, the key principal is to ALWAYS make sure that Leningrad and Stalingrad do not fall into German hands.

@thedesertfox
Very true and a good strategy

Well I am going to go the other way here. I love it when I see the Russian Player trying to counter attack the German push and building fast movers, artillery or perhaps even planes. Without significant help Moscow is going to fall. Time is what the Allies need to either a) provide that help or b) take out Japan so that the Allies still win once Moscow falls.

Losing Moscow is not a game loser for the Allies. Losing Moscow quickly and before Japan has been beat up is. The goal for Russia is to hold as long as possible and make it as costly as possible for the Germans. Infantry are the best unit on the board in defense; nothing even comes close offensively. Having lots of infantry in Moscow makes life tough on Germany.

When Russia buys anything but infantry they are automatically weakening their ultimate defense. If Russia attacks they are doing the Germans a favor. Even if the Russians were able to trade even, and a good German Player would never allow that, it is still a loser for the Russians. Losing 10 infantry for the Russians is losing 20 in defensive firepower while the Germans losing 10 infantry is only losing 10 offensive firepower. It makes no sense for Russia to squander their sole advantage. Infantry on defense are cheap.

@andrewaagamer

If the Soviet player doesn’t counter attack they’re going to lose, simple as that. This has been seen countless amounts of times in the previous years of 2017-2019 of people trying all sorts of defensive techniques and losing all the same. Germany makes much more money, mobilizes much faster, and packs a far bigger punch than that of which the Soviet Union can handle by just defending. You can turtle up on Moscow but all that would do for you is it will win you the battle, but it won’t win you the war. Because you’ve won the battle of Moscow, but you’ve taken severe casualties as well as quite literally losing your entire Western half of the country to the Germans.

You have to look at it from a broader perspective, tons upon tons of people said the same thing as you did that “You can’t throw away Russia’s defensive units” or “Russia HAS to defend Moscow because we think that’s the best option”, people tried a counter attacking strategy and it worked marvelously. The bottom line is, I think you’re trying to convey that Russia should focus on taking minimal losses on the front, and unfortunately that just isn’t possible. The Soviet player will be taking tremendous casualties, simply defending or counter attacking, it’s the latter of these 2 options though that will give them the benefit of the doubt on the Eastern Front. They’ll take tons of casualties, they just will, that’s what’s going to happen, and you won’t stop it, so if you’re men are going to die, take the enemy down with them.

@thedesertfox said in Turtling vs Counter-attacking as Soviet Union?:

people tried a counter attacking strategy and it worked marvelously.

I have never seen a Russian counter attack strategy that worked. You must be seeing different games than I have. Show me a game where the Russians killed MORE of the Germans than they lost via a counter attacking strategy. With the one caveat the German player was not an idiot. Any strategy works against poor play.

@thedesertfox said in Turtling vs Counter-attacking as Soviet Union?:

hey’ll take tons of casualties, they just will, that’s what’s going to happen, and you won’t stop it, so if you’re men are going to die, take the enemy down with them.

I disagree with you here too. It is not inevitable that Moscow falls. Given enough help from the US and Brits Moscow can hold. Even if they can’t hold losing Moscow is not the end of the game as long as the Germans have spent a tremendous amount of time and effort taking it. As long as Japan is beat up the Allies can stop the Axis from getting to Egypt.

By using a counter attacking strategy as Russia you are increasing the battle tempo on the Russian Front which is good for Germany and bad for Russia as the faster Russian units die the easier and quicker it is for Germany to knock Russia out of the game.

Assuming German movement played properly the Russians cannot kill more German units than they lose via a counter attacking strategy. Thus it is not a wise choice.

@andrewaagamer said in Turtling vs Counter-attacking as Soviet Union?:

I have never seen a Russian counter attack strategy that worked. You must be seeing different games than I have. Show me a game where the Russians killed MORE of the Germans than they lost via a counter attacking strategy. With the one caveat the German player was not an idiot. Any strategy works against poor play.

Is that because it’s never done the job to fight off Germany alone? In that case, yes you’re absolutely correct. There is not a Russian Counter Attacking strategy that has succeeded to single handedly push Germany back to Berlin. Now, I can confirm to you that an assisted Allied invasion of mainland Europe to assist the Soviet Union’s counter offensive has worked, it’s worked well. Like I had previously stated before, “you’re going to take tons of casualties as the Soviet Union.” Fact of the matter is, as the Soviet Union, you won’t be killing enough German units on the board, it won’t be enough, and it won’t ever be enough. People have known this for years know, hence why nobody has tried to find a way for the Soviet Union to single handedly hold on by themselves against Germany, because it’s not possible. What is possible, is for the Soviet Union to hold out until an Allied landing is made by the British in Norway and Finland, and the Americans in Southern France and Italy.

I disagree with you here too. It is not inevitable that Moscow falls. Given enough help from the US and Brits Moscow can hold. Even if they can’t hold losing Moscow is not the end of the game as long as the Germans have spent a tremendous amount of time and effort taking it. As long as Japan is beat up the Allies can stop the Axis from getting to Egypt.

I don’t think you quite understood what I said here, I’m not referring to the Fall of Moscow here, that’s not even close to what I’m relating this to. What it is that I’m conveying here is the inevitability of losing mass amounts of troops at the cost of protecting your given victory cities and industrial hubs. It’ll take 6+ turns to properly execute Barbarossa on the Soviet Union and completely defeat the Soviet Presence as a whole, so I can only assume that what you are referring to is the Germans potentially taking to G8-G9 to get to Moscow, in which case yes, this is behind schedule and too little too late to have taken them out. Granted, losing Moscow isn’t the end of the game, but let’s quit the fruit picking and face the idea that it may as well be. What are you going to do against a Germany that’s now making probably twice as much money as the UK, and more often than not just as much money as America? You’d have to tell me that one. As for Japan, if ‘beating them up’ was so simple the Allies wouldn’t be having a problem at all, but it ain’t so simple as speaking the word, how do you plan to stop Japan? Do you have a plan to properly eliminate the Imperial Japanese Navy? Overall, do you know how to eliminate the Japanese sphere of influence?

Assuming German movement played properly the Russians cannot kill more German units than they lose via a counter attacking strategy. Thus it is not a wise choice.

As I previously stated, you won’t be killing enough German units, you won’t ever be killing enough German units. It will NEVER be enough, but sometimes you gotta take the good with the bad and play the risk, otherwise you’re pretty much handing them the win. If your units don’t die attacking those Nazis they’ll die defending, nothing’s changed.

@thedesertfox said in Turtling vs Counter-attacking as Soviet Union?:

Is that because it’s never done the job to fight off Germany alone? In that case, yes you’re absolutely correct. There is not a Russian Counter Attacking strategy that has succeeded to single handedly push Germany back to Berlin. Now, I can confirm to you that an assisted Allied invasion of mainland Europe to assist the Soviet Union’s counter offensive has worked, it’s worked well. Like I had previously stated before, “you’re going to take tons of casualties as the Soviet Union.” Fact of the matter is, as the Soviet Union, you won’t be killing enough German units on the board, it won’t be enough, and it won’t ever be enough. People have known this for years know, hence why nobody has tried to find a way for the Soviet Union to single handedly hold on by themselves against Germany, because it’s not possible. What is possible, is for the Soviet Union to hold out until an Allied landing is made by the British in Norway and Finland, and the Americans in Southern France and Italy.

I am not asking to see Russia push Germany back to Berlin. Assuming no Sealion that is not possible. I have never had that happen to me in a game where I was the Axis. I have seen other games where the German Player turtles Russia then runs either to Norway or the Middle East, or both, and then lets the Russian stack move against Berlin. That is just a flat out mistake. Or once the Russian stack retreats from Moscow the German Player screws up and gives them the shorter path to Berlin; I have seen that too though I have never let it happen to me. Another major mistake. With no major mistakes it ain’t gonna happen. If Germany ignores Sealion and goes for Moscow the Russians cannot push them back even one territory. At best they may hold a territory; like Bryansk, for a Turn or two or more depending on how many Allied fighters can help them.

Whether or not the Allies are making landings on Germany’s west flank is irrelevant to what Russia does. No matter how many resources the Allies force the Axis to play defensively with it still comes down to are the Russian units better off playing defensively or counter attacking. Give me an example where the Russians kill more units than they lose. If you can’t then it is better off that they turtle.

BTW that is some pretty optimistic Allied goals having UK take Norway and Finland while the US takes Southern France and Italy. Is there no money being spent in the Pacific? Having to build two separate fleets capable of withstanding the Luftwaffe is some pretty major bucks.

@thedesertfox said in Turtling vs Counter-attacking as Soviet Union?:

I don’t think you quite understood what I said here, I’m not referring to the Fall of Moscow here, that’s not even close to what I’m relating this to. What it is that I’m conveying here is the inevitability of losing mass amounts of troops at the cost of protecting your given victory cities and industrial hubs. It’ll take 6+ turns to properly execute Barbarossa on the Soviet Union and completely defeat the Soviet Presence as a whole, so I can only assume that what you are referring to is the Germans potentially taking to G8-G9 to get to Moscow, in which case yes, this is behind schedule and too little too late to have taken them out. Granted, losing Moscow isn’t the end of the game, but let’s quit the fruit picking and face the idea that it may as well be. What are you going to do against a Germany that’s now making probably twice as much money as the UK, and more often than not just as much money as America? You’d have to tell me that one. As for Japan, if ‘beating them up’ was so simple the Allies wouldn’t be having a problem at all, but it ain’t so simple as speaking the word, how do you plan to stop Japan? Do you have a plan to properly eliminate the Imperial Japanese Navy? Overall, do you know how to eliminate the Japanese sphere of influence?

Moscow, without significant help, will fall on G7. So everything you are talking about is from G3 to G6. How are you proposing that via your counter attacking strategy you can stop that? If you can’t are you killing more units by counter attacking versus turtling or not? If you are not then it is a worse path to follow. Again, give me an example, any, of a Russian counter attack that makes any sense.

As for Japan that depends on how much the US is spending in the Pacific. If the Russian Far East troops do not move towards Moscow and the US spends heavily in the Pacific Japan is toast. It is very difficult for Japan to knock out China if they have 10-12 units pinned in Manchuria/Korea. Add in an aggressive India killing ground units and it is tough for Japan to get enough ground forces onto the Mainland to fight China and India. With ANZAC and the US trading the Money Islands it gets even worse for Japan. My experience is that the key is for Japan to get low enough in monies that the US can then go whole hog in Europe to stave off a win by Germany. If Germany gets over $100 then yes the Allies are in a world of hurt. Which is why Russia has to hold long enough for the Allies to beat down Japan till they are out of the game so they can shift focus to Europe. Thus a defensive strategy that extends Moscow falling is better than an aggressive one that doesn’t kill as many German units and quickens Moscow’s death.

@thedesertfox said in Turtling vs Counter-attacking as Soviet Union?:

nothing’s changed.

What has changed is time. Time favors the Allies as they are collecting more money.

In summary - again - provide me with an example - an attack - via this counter attacking strategy where more German units die than Russian in any given instance. And I am not talking one versus none for some dead zone battle.

@andrewaagamer

Andrew… I’ve said this now a few times. You won’t be taking off enough units. In other words to answer your question, it really doesn’t matter if you take off more units than that of which you’d want or less, ultimately that’s up to the dice rolling, and that of what Germany does anyway.

I already have a counter strategy set in stone as Germany to stop them in the event that they attempt General Hand Grenade’s counter attacking strategy, but here and at this moment in time, I’m telling you that this is the latter of the 2 options. Germany will snowball, be left unharmed and unattended to if you turtle your forces onto Moscow, and it’ll be a pyrrhic victory for you. (a victory at which you lost so much that it could be conveyed as a defeat).

I’m not gonna give an instance of when the Soviets kill more Germans than that of which they lose because that’s a scenario that is COMPLETELY up in the air to which the dice decide if they lose more or lose less, maybe German units will be leftover, maybe none will be leftover, that’s the cost. Turtling or Counter attacking won’t completely stop Germany, but in terms of delaying them until the Allies arrive, counter attacking works effectively. Look at the countless amounts of games that have happened at the Grasshopper tournament, you’ll see Russian players turtling their forces onto Moscow with a decently formidable force, but that of which you lost everything you had around you, leaving you with a pyrrhic victory.

In the end, you pick your poison. Do you wanna atleast do some damage to the impending German army that comes to Moscow and bog down their force before it even arrives or not kill any of them at all and let their superior mobilization do the talking over your pitiful 37 IPC’s of units? Ultimately that’s up to the player.

It’s getting pretty late for me so we’ll have to pick this up in the morning, I’m enjoying this conversation so far.

@thedesertfox With respects, Young Grasshopper’s tournament uses house rules. This forum is for actual Axis & Allies Global 1940.

@victoryfirst that’s similar to my strategy and I really like it. I like to do some of Tan Skies with GHGs middle earth and then Russia retreating back. And the US just causing issues to the West. Ofc they also need to put up a fight against Japan I like them to build up a large navy and strat bomber force around Europe. With Middle Earth, defending Cairo and Calcutta is very easy, and fighters can get up to Moscow in a single turn from Persia with Tanks/Mechs taking 2 turns. Seems to work quite well because if the Europe Axis can’t take London or Cairo they can’t win and if Japan can’t take Calcutta or Honolulu they can’t win.

@victoryfirst

So while I agree with the generic overall Allied strategy you mention (Russia turtles, Taranto, push hard in Middle East, send air and ground to help Moscow) there is not a winning strategy against the Axis without a hefty Bid in OOB Global 1940 2nd Edition. $50-$60 IPCs is needed to balance the game as the Axis have quite an advantage.

As you mention I figure you just haven’t figured out how to play the Axis efficiently yet.

BTW your House Rule of hacking of bombers actually helps the Axis, not hinders it. While I have seen some people use bombers against Moscow I have never done that myself and I take Moscow eventually 98% of the time. On the other hand the Allies bombing the crap out of the Axis as they take minors and Germany proper is definitely part of the Allied strategy. As someone who likes being Axis I would certainly enjoy playing against someone using your House Rule.

@andrewaagamer I definitely agree, I was horrible at playing the Axis but it just took a few games and some new strays to see the unbalance. And I too don’t like nerfing strat bombers because it seems to unbalance it more.