1942.2 with the LH Balance patch in play, what is now a usual bid to play Allies.

Oh yeah …… :-D

I haven’t played 1942.2, but for me the famed viability of a KJF strategy is a huge draw over AA50 (which I have played).

In the Gamemaster edition, Revised*, AA50**, and 42 1st edition all require a KGF strategy for optimal Allied play.  This makes 1942 2nd edition a very new experience to entice me with.

I have not played G40 2nd edition yet (only 1st edition).  I understand that is also a KJF game, so for those of you who play that, perhaps KJF is less of a lure.  I have also not played A&A: 1941, and have no idea as to the correct strategies there.

The minor victory scenario (8 cities) entailed a balanced Allied strategy for a strong defense in India.  But I never tried a full blown KJF.  I haven’t looked at that game for as long time, but I would tend to think Germany wins the game if the Allies go KJF in a minor victory setting.

** I have only played the 1941 scenario (with NOs), and cannot attest to the other variations.

Yup.  I usually get together once a month with a group of guys here in the San Francisco area.  Tonight Im solo though.  Trying out new strategies.  Game report update.  Germans already have 11 tanks close to Ukraine. Yikes! Though the Americans already have a nice fleet and are poised to land in Morroco. Next few turns are going to be interesting

@Baron:

The Triple A 1942.2 SBR rule is each plane get Att or Def @1 and StB get 1D6 damage.

However, the math also shows that it is not better to bring along Fg as escort than throwing only StBs.
Almost the same odds: 0.825 IPC/ SBR run (with 1 StB 1 Fg) vs 0.861 IPC/ SBR run (with 2 StBs).

The only difference is with 2 Bombers there is much risk (of loosing more IPCs) but also much reward (more damage against the defender).

From this, my analysis will be that there is no need to escort 2 bombers or more with Fighters as long as you get a 1:1 ratio against defending interceptors. Better to put your Fgs on other missions.

Below there is the maths.

Triple A SBR 1942.2: 2 StBs A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D1

Sum: +8.195 - 7.334 = + 0.861 IPCs damage/StB

I can also add that it is even more the case with G40 SBR, no need to throw a Fg on an escort mission if you have at least 2 StBs and a 1:1 ratio against defending interceptors.

According to the maths of G40 OOB SBR rules, the odds to inflict damage to the defender are clearly increasing keeping 1:1 ratio, from 1 StB, 1 StB+1Fg and, finally 2 StBs.
The odds are even better than a single bomber against an undefended Industrial Complex ! ( +2.583 vs + 3.639 IPCs damage/SBR run)

G1940 SBR: 1 StB doing SBR without interceptor/ damage 1D6+2
Sum: +4.583 - 2 = +2.583 IPCs damage/SBR run

G40: 1 StB A1 doing SBR against 1 Fg D1 / damage 1D6+2
Sum: + 4.845 - 3.666 = + 1.179 IPC. damage/SBR run

G40: 1 StB A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D1
Sum: + 4.85 - 5.056 = - 0.206 IPCs damage/SBR run

G40: 1 StB & 1 Fg A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D1 damage: 1D6+2
Sum: +7.775 - 5.33 = + 2.445 IPCs damage/SBR run

G40: 2 StBs A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D1 damage: 1D6+2/StB
Sum: +10.973 - 7.334 = + 3.639 IPCs damage/SBR run

G40: 1 StB & 1 Fg A1 doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fgs D1
Sum: + 7.639 - 3.667 = + 3.972 IPCs damage/SBR run

G40: 2 StBs A1 doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fgs D1
Sum: +11.459 - 5.666 = + 5.793 IPCs damage/SBR run

Triple A SBR 1942.2: 1 StB doing SBR without interceptor (A1 vs D1, damage 1D6)
Sum: +2.917 - 2 = +0.917 IPC damage/SBR run

Triple A SBR 1942.2: 1 StB A1 vs 1 Fg D1
Sum: +3.69 - 3.667 = + 0.023 IPC damage/SBR run

Triple A SBR 1942.2 : 1 StB A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D1 / damage 1D6
Sum: + 2.025 - 5.056 = - 3.031 IPCs damage/SBR run

Triple A SBR 1942.2: 1 StB & 1 Fg A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D1
Sum: +6.155 - 5.33 = + 0.825 IPC damage/SBR run

Triple A SBR 1942.2: 2 StBs A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D1
Sum: +8.195 - 7.334 = + 0.861 IPC damage/SBR run

Triple A SBR 1942.2: 1 StB & 1 Fg A1 doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fg D1
Sum: + 5.973 - 3.667 = + 2.306 IPCs damage/SBR run

Triple A SBR 1942.2: 2 StBs A1 doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fg D1
Sum: +8.403 - 5.666 = + 2.737 IPCs damage/StB

OOB SBR rules for 1942.2: 1 StB doing SBR without interceptor damage: 1D6
Sum: + 2.917 - 2 = +.917 IPC damage/SBR run

OOB 1942.2: 1 StB A1 first strike vs 1 Fg D2
Sum: + 3.8 - 4.8 = - 1 IPC damage/SBR run

OOB 1942.2: 1 StB A1 first strike doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2 / damage 1D6
Sum: + 3.071 - 7.185 = - 4.114 IPC. damage/SBR

OOB 1942.2: 1 StB & 1 Fg A1 first strike doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2
Sum: + 6.018 - 7.555 = - 1.537 IPCs damage/SBR run

OOB 1942.2: 2 StBs A1 first strike doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D2
Sum: +7.547 - 9.556 = - 2.009 IPCs damage/SBR run

OOB 1942.2: 1 StB & 1 Fg A1 first strike doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fg D2
Sum: + 5.973 - 5.159 = + 0.814 IPCs damage/SBR run

OOB 1942.2: 2 StBs A1 first strike doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fg D2
Sum: + 8.214 - 6.315 = + 1.899 IPCs damage/SBR run

So the only case for advocating Fg escort is within OOB SBR rules from 1942.2, the odds are less worse for the attacker if it keeps pairing 1 StB with 1 Fg.

Playing 1942.2 online with Triple A SBR rules however, it is a different story. As in G40, 2 StBs has almost the same odds of doing damage as a single StB raid against an undefended IC.
(.861 vs .917 IPC/SBR run)

So, based on these comparative stats, we can say that the actual OOB 1942.2 SBR rules is more historical than the 2 others, since the game mechanics give less risks for bombers when paired to Fg but it is at the expense of making SBR strategies much less appealing for attacker, and for Allies in particular.

Here is the link to HR forum for what I think is a more historical and balance SBR rules:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=34118.msg1311386#msg1311386

@Uncrustable:

USA lost the 1 move Canada chuck
Now it both costs more and takes longer for the USA to make a real impact

This cannot be understated. It REALLY slows down the America. I didn’t used to mind US making about the same as Germany, but now it is hard for them to have an impact. Add to this the fact that Germany can sink the US Atlantic fleet on turn 1, and America just got a lot  harder to be effective.

:(

One thing I don’t see being said is that the allies get a bid. Where did their bid go? Also don’t go all out against Japan with allies if Japan builds all fleet first turn. If Japan builds an industry and transports, then I’d say KJF is very viable. Russia can’t stand alone against Germany, so what you need to do is build 3 infantry and 2 fighters a turn with UK. On UK’s turn when you see that Moscow will fall in 3 turns pull out of India. You will reach Moscow before Germany attacks, and with your 15+ infantry added to Moscow for defense means Germany can’t hope to take it. The key is going to be having US take out Japans fleet, or take and hold one of the main islands by turn 4. Germany is going to be a bloody monster, and so you shouldn’t build any fleet with UK. Just build fighters for UK and units in India. There is no way India can fall to Japan unless Japan compromises his fleets power by building transports and ground troops, which means that the islands will be easy takes.

Im making flags, work in progress. I work in a kitchen so…using the top of mini tabasco bottle for base, about the size of classic aa gun. Heat paperclip to make hole in center. Insert tooth pick…ta da… flag pole. Will glue tiny metal washer to bottom if needs more weight but seems fine fight now. Next take plastic coffee stirer and cut in half, melt one side closed. Glue or tape paper flag to stirer. Place tabasco base on vc then add controlling flag on top. Can easily swap out controlling flags to new owner…gonna print 20 ea flags 2 sided for each of the 10 nations. Gonna color copy roundels for graphics. Gives 20 stands and 200 flags for all possible out comes. You never know, france may conqure the map!

well yea perhaps