I used the wrong word. Its “parting shot”.
Now to be clear.
No more “parting shot” for all combats?
+++++ LOL your using my terminology from along time ago! no no parting shots…
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Say attacker has 3 ARM left, defender retreats 3 INF and leaves 2 ARM behind…should the 3 attacking ARM be able to envelop the retreating defending INF?
+++ yes two rolls capturing them on a six 1-5 no effect ( they retreat) defending tanks dont “sheild” this. presumably the territory is large and getting surrounded can occur within other parts of the same territory ( look at western europe… its a huge area)… remember that in the stated example tank hits go on enemy tanks before another unit.
Firstly we should make it capture on “1” rather than “6”, to be inline with general axis and allies rolling.
+++++ ok thats fine.
Now, I understand a territory is a large area. But I think its more realistic if only attacking ARM in excess (1-to-1 to defending remaining to fight) should take part in capturing.
+++++ ok that probably works out better… so the new rules is only if you have more tanks than the defender each additional tank forces the defender to roll for every retreating infantry or artillery… NOTE I THINK WE SHOULD ADD ARTILLERY… because they move slow like infantry and are situated in fixed positions…so overruns are possible.
I mean consider another example.
Attacker has 3 ARM left. Defender has more…say 5 ARM and 5 INF left.
But defender chooses to retreat the 5 INF anyway…for whatever reason.
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++++ you dont need this… this example is quite remote for practical play and at most theirs allways one spot to retreat too because of interior lines. at most one other battle board.
You mean if there is one or more adjacent friendly territories with no “pending combat” then you must choose among those? No option to check two combats cycle by cycle in that case?
+++++ Yes right you can… thats makes quick work of that “problem”
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++++ huh? its allready stated NOT MORE THAN ONE MISSION AS DEFENDER OR ATTACKER.
exceptions is air transport for bombers.
Firstly, we take “Air Transport” as a special non-combat move, one that is allowed even after taking part in combat?
++++ yes air transport goes on in non combat anyway.
Now, I was talking about if units that performed a mission can still fight?
Say a FTR performed DAS, can it still combat after it finish the mission?
+++++++Again it can do a DAS as the defender and a new mission on its own active turn.
UK attacks “Western Europe”. A German FTR at “Germany” comes to perform DAS in “Western Europe”.
When finished it retreats to “Germany”.
But “Germany” happens to be under attack too…can it take part in defending “Germany”?
++++ no because all defending planes land only after the end of all combat… thus they land in territories within 1/2 flight range. The allies take western and german planes remain untill other combat is resolved in other territories like in OOB
If it can’t, how do we keep track?
++++ you only have to keep track of movement points left over as the attacker like you do in OOB rules.
@Imperious:
NOTE I THINK WE SHOULD ADD ARTILLERY… because they move slow like infantry and are situated in fixed positions…so overruns are possible.
Of course I agree. I suggested it first.
You mean if there is one or more adjacent friendly territories with no “pending combat” then you must choose among those? No option to check two combats cycle by cycle in that case?
+++++ Yes right you can… thats makes quick work of that “problem”
Ok so defender can must retreat to friendly territories with no pending combat if avaliable. If unavailable we do cycle-by-cycle analysis for defending land units, fly 1/2 range for defending air units.
++++ no because all defending planes land only after the end of all combat… thus they land in territories within 1/2 flight range. The allies take western and german planes remain untill other combat is resolved in other territories like in OOB
Ok so air units that performed a DAS mission do not take part in further combat for the rest of the (passive) turn.
Of course I agree. I suggested it first.
++++ yes you did good!
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You mean if there is one or more adjacent friendly territories with no “pending combat” then you must choose among those? No option to check two combats cycle by cycle in that case?
+++++ Yes right you can… thats makes quick work of that “problem”
Ok so defender can must retreat to friendly territories with no pending combat if avaliable. If unavailable we do cycle-by-cycle analysis for defending land units, fly 1/2 range for defending air units.
++++ exactly perfect!
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++++ no because all defending planes land only after the end of all combat… thus they land in territories within 1/2 flight range. The allies take western and german planes remain untill other combat is resolved in other territories like in OOB
Ok so air units that performed a DAS mission do not take part in further combat for the rest of the (passive) turn.
+++++yes exactly you got it perfect!
do you see any other “problems” with the current combat porposal?
@Imperious:
do you see any other “problems” with the current combat porposal?
well, we do have “air interdiction” to talk about if we are having that
also, you haven’t answered whether you ok with not able to have “battle of britain” style attacks?
that is
attacker: air
defender: air + land
current proposal only allows one cycle of combat
just like
attacker: air
defender air + naval
well, we do have “air interdiction” to talk about if we are having that
also, you haven’t answered whether you ok with not able to have “battle of britain” style attacks?
that is
attacker: air
defender: air + land
current proposal only allows one cycle of combat
just like
attacker: air
defender air + naval
+++++++ Ok the air interdiction idea is basically from AH d-day, but with some changes. Its one round because if it wasnt then that mission would never be tried. I playtested it and thats a correct statement. The basic idea is a simple way to demonstrate some influence on moving land units, and secondly to feature some ability to “bomb” rail lines where this type of mission is performed.
Oh I see.
I am unfamiliar with D-Day.
I think the rules are posted at avalon hill.com
BTW i bought this “operation barbarossa” game which is touted as a axis and allies expansion… its very simple and fun to play… i was surprised how fun it is.
24.95
not a bad game really!
oooh in the FAQ I found
Q. If fighters are sent to defend an adjacent area that is being attacked with fighters in the attacking force, can the defending fighters retreat?
A. No. As long as there are attacking fighters, then defending fighters must remain. If the attacking fighters are destroyed, then the defending fighters may retreat before any combat round to any airbase within range (page 7/8). 1 of their 4 movement points is used up if they have moved to defend an adjacent territory. If the fighters do not retreat (i.e. the defenders won the fight), then they must land at the adjacent airbase they came from.
It seems Operation Barbarossa also has this “DAS” rule?
Interdiction
from D-Day rule
Fighters : Fighters do not attack when they enter a zone containing Axis land units. They are on patrol,
waiting for enemy movement. They have the opportunity to strafe any Axis land u nit s that move into or out of the zone. Roll one die per fighter against each Axis land un it that moves, including reinforcements (see below); a roll of 1 destroys that unit. The Axis player can not return fire.
from your proposal
B. Interdiction
Each Bomber can attempt to stop the movement of enemy units out of a given territory. The Bomber is placed into the space until the following turn when it can then be used for further missions. For each Armor class unit that attempts to move into or leave the space is subject to a roll of one D6. A roll of 1 and the unit is destroyed. A roll of 2-3 and the unit may not leave the space that turn.
How come one is fighter and one is bomber?
Maritime Defense
I think this can be under Defensive Air Support.
Its just a special case of it involving an adjacent friendly sea zone, rather than an adjacent friendly territory.
Note: Under current rules, land FTR or BMR may only fight for one cycle in the sea.
How come one is fighter and one is bomber?
++++ great question! i think this fell thru the cracks… it really should be either.
Maritime Defense
I think this can be under Defensive Air Support.
++++ yes probably right… to simplify that should be changed… the idea was to seperate it because now were dealing with oceans and warships instead of.
Its just a special case of it involving an adjacent friendly sea zone, rather than an adjacent friendly territory.
Note: Under current rules, land FTR or BMR may only fight for one cycle in the sea.
so now, only air interdiction left
is it a move by the active player? or a response move by the passive player?
Its on the active players turn… he places his bomber in a territory on his turn… the bomber stays until exactly one turn later when it can be used for other things
is a territory has enemy air units, can you still put your bomber there for interdiction?
Yes you fight it out with pne round of interdiction combat. so your bomber will need escorts. the defending player is using his passive air mission in this case.
oh i see
no further questions at this point
although you’ve skipped again my question of whether its ok to not able to do “Battle of Britain 2”
I cant find this section: I think you want multiple air battles over British skies?
OK so heres a possible solution: German planes can fly over British territory and SBR its industrial complex with one round of combat. this is the only current method where we allow such a dogfight for its own w/o any land units involved… Now say we use any remaining movement points left over that the German planes have to force additional combat rounds with each additional round costing one additional movement point.
example: lets give the fighters 6 movement points and bombers 8 MP however the planes have to land exactly where they came from… no more take off from UK to bomb Africa and land in north Africa…thus in western Europe German planes can expend 2 MP to get to england and use 2 MP to get back… this leaves 2 free MP which allows up to 3 rounds or air combat over england ( using those modified aerial combat values).
thats one free round as per normal rules and one round for each free MP available.
thats a big change from the “retreat when you have no land units left” rule
is this “additional round per movement points” rule only for dogfighting or also for bombing?
I duno if we should force planes to land where they started though
but this idea I think can be applied to land planes combating in sea zones, but only for sea zones adjacement to a friendly territory
I am actually ok with our current rules
see the philospies behind them
just wondered if you think it was ok because you bought up “battle of britain” when we first discussed whether planes need land control to operate
Planes needing land control? What about mainly “Airpower” being stationed at Gibraltar? I understand the Rationale, but maybe you should consider allowing Aircraft to Retreat when being attacked alone?
GG
The stated rule can also be used universally to solve the sub stall debate and also fix the idea of stopping a naval fleet with a single ship ( also stalling it).
example:
The phasing player has two MP he spends one moving into a zone occupied by enemy naval units. the attacking player can decide to force combat and end his combat move in this territory. The defender can now decide he is unwilling to block the fleet and allow your fleet to pass thru the SZ and move into a new sea zone. Note: the attacker decides first whether he wants to attack and the defender has a second option also to engage. If neither side wants combat the ships may pass. In this latter case the same routine occurs with each side having an option to attack or be attacked. Each round of combat beyond the first combat phase costs one MP.
If we decide to change naval movement to 3 this idea would work better, but 2 is also ok… except as you know Carriers and Cruisers move 3 anyway under the new ideas. (fast carriers and new cruiser unit)
The very same idea can be extropolated from this same idea… namely with air combat  beyond the first round costing one MP. Planes may even be able to attack in one territory and continue into another territory if they have MP left… this is a new idea.
