The Bright Skies

That’s a good point taamvan. To allow your army to be vulnerable to can openers, and to German columns is a death wish.

When I play Global we record the game stats so that we can review the past. From a large sample size of the games that we have played, Germany takes Moscow about 4 out of 10 times. This is based on a few different factors. Of course you cannot control the outcome of dice, and the purchases of any given player for Germany or Russia.

Well, if the Germany and Italy players (BOTH!) are experts, then I don’t see a way to prevent, only prepare.  I’m buying a few mechs and as many infantry as I can with Russia.  Artillery would be awesome, because in theory, Germany may decline to stack next to you if he believes that you can do-or-die against his main spearhead.  However, even if this opportunity comes up, it should be a strafe and retreat because you will typically need every single Russian guy to ensure the odds.

As to the defense of Moscow itself, on G5, (Game 164), I had 26 men, 2 mechs, 1 armor, 4 AAA, 7 artillery, 2 fighters, 1 tac, and a few other units.  This was totally inadequate and in order to win I got lucky and hit 4/11 (1s) with the incoming AAA.  So Moscow held, but not because of my play, it was luck.  The Siberian troops are still 2 turns away from making the difference I believe.

People are talking outrageous numbers of planes and bombers and fighters reaching Moscow before 6, this blows a Russian bonus, it means you can’t use those planes to protect india or really do anything else.  I’ve heard quotes of 14 fighters and 10 bombers, most real life games I’m getting to 5 and 2 but I’m not playing every team either…

That is a good point taamvan. I am in the middle of a current game (we usually play one game over the course of a week), where Germany decided not to attack Moscow, realizing that they were at a disadvantage and instead took the 15 NO bonuses in the surrounding territories. Russia, being restricted to mainly infantry has a difficult time moving around their territories to take them back from Germany. Germany has a total of 20 NO bonuses, resulting in nearly 80 IPCs per turn. The allies were able to place 8 fighters and 1 tact 1 bomber in defense of Moscow, which is why Germany turned away. That is the most allied fighters we have ever had land in defense of Moscow. Luckily for the allies, they were able to stave off Italy in Africa, and they took complete control of the Middle East and even the Balkans. This has resulted in a stoppage of growth for Germany, and now the game has become a game of attrition against the Axis.

The point here is that there is no sure fire way to defend Moscow 100% of the time. It has unfortunately been the staple of the Russian army to purchase nothing but infantry, and stack in Moscow, hoping for the best possible outcome. This is the battle that usually will decide the fate of the rest of the game. We can try other tactics with Russia, but should*** come to the consensus that has already been established, which is that the best way for the Russian player to defend himself is to infantry stack.

*** I use the word “should” here, because the AA community has played this game collectively for a very long time (from what I gather). We understand the basic principles of the numbers, and the strategic value of most units. The only way that we will see a different Russian strategy, is if we change the attack and defense values of units, which I just don’t see being a feasible outcome. I think the infantry stack strategy closely follow the true life nature of the Russian forces during WWII. The Germans clearly had superior technology, they just didn’t have the manpower to out muscle the mass of Russian infantry.

The whole point of getting 10 usa bombers is to quickly get them into Russia, this allows for early aggressive Russia play. I don’t recommend Iraq for Russia, I do it for fun once in awhile. 1 mech for somaliland / possibly ethiopia is all you need for additional income. The Iraq spot is good for another factory to pump out units for uk.

@Requester45:

Germany decided not to attack Moscow, realizing that they were at a disadvantage and instead took the 15 NO bonuses in the surrounding territories. Russia, being restricted to mainly infantry has a difficult time moving around their territories to take them back from Germany. Germany has a total of 20 NO bonuses, resulting in nearly 80 IPCs per turn.

I think this would be the average result between two skilled players, meaning it would happen this way every time if luck weren’t a factor. This represents a tipping point in the game when we can begin to see the effects of all of the other little things that have been happening on the board and the game can begin to tilt in the Allies’ favor…or not.

With luck as a factor, you’ll have some games that deviate quite far from this “baseline”, but if you keep the baseline in mind you’ll have a better perspective on what is happening in this particular game and know where your strong and weak areas are.

If Germany and Italy go all in for Russia, you have to build a Russian super stack and bring in an air coalition to defend Moscow, but you get to have North Africa and the Med. If they contest those areas more, then you know you don’t have to be quite as defensive in Moscow, so you can either redeploy U.S./British resources, or you can make Russia more aggressive.

@Cow:

The whole point of getting 10 usa bombers is to quickly get them into Russia, this allows for early aggressive Russia play. I don’t recommend Iraq for Russia, I do it for fun once in awhile. 1 mech for somaliland / possibly ethiopia is all you need for additional income. The Iraq spot is good for another factory to pump out units for uk.

Exactely what is early aggressive Russia play in this situation? What do you buy and what do you attck typically? I see tons of limitations, such as “10 USA bombers are two round of USA buys that really does nothing” Well, they sit around in Moscow, you say you bomb ukraine/novogorod, fine but if germany put two fighters in each area you are not doing that. Then what are the bombers doing?

If you buy 10 bombers it is not like you have a USA navy sitting around in 110 either so I think the German fighters have other things to do than beeing in western europe. So I am cuirios on how this play boosts Russias possibilities

@Afrikakorps:

Those 12 bombers attack the Baltic Fleet and will then be bombing crucial German factories. The destruction of the Baltic Fleet allows Russia to take over Scandinavia with minimum forces, as it can not be reinforced.

I see the points about building critical mass for the defense of Moscow (infantry) , and the builds for a counter-attack (mech + artillery) . I think both are needed, and therefore require a balance. I will make a study about this today.

The think the first mission of Russia should be to dissuade a quick conquest of Leningrad. This can be done by concentrating power there and when Germany has not buyed full artillery G1 and DOW3, as that would be too much. In many order situations though, you can prevent a G3 victory there.

Don’t forget that the possibility of a counter-attack can also delay the German advance. If I can devise a plan to have the optimal Russian counter-attack available in R4/5, this might force Germany to take it slower, giving me some more time to build infantry + invite Allied figthers.

I think we are missing some critical points here. Assuming USA is brought into the war in round, 2 they can put 5 bombers in scotland usa 2. Technically they can take out some German navy on USA 3, but most likely the Germany navy will have air cover. Depending on what Germany has this may or may not happen. But here is the trick. Germany sees that Russia is stacking Novgorod and goes to baltic states. Now what for Russia? If you go to karelia with your stack German fast movers will secure Novgorod while remaing men will go towards moscow. End result Moscow is toast with or without USA bombers and it is not feasible for USA to take out German fleet on USA 4 without loosing its bombers (I think)

I am sure COW has some good use for those USA bombers in Russia and how it affects Russia play. However messing around in scandinavia is never a good plan for Russia. It is a foolproof receipe for loosing moscow on G5 or G6.

The additional USA bombers on USA 4 must land in moscow from scotland.

If he owns Baltic states and has 1 transport, there is no way you can hold novogrod.  It either falls G2 or G3.  You could stack everything there and dissuade an attack, but then it can be cut off by the Axis and the slow-movers (1) cannot return to Moscow without getting annihilated.  I only had about 35 lesser pieces on Moscow by G5–if this number is below 25 you are cooked since I barely won under that circumstance.

The German Fleet, conservatively, can have CV (2) BB (2) CA (1) and Air (3).  This is 8 hits and you will need at least 8 hits to attack it with confidence.  In this case, we have only bombers, which are our only potential casualties.  Also, all these plans call for building only bombers, which sounds great but its not a very practical choice.  US fleet at start, without more, cannot remotely step up to Japan and so if you don’t improve that with some carriers and destroyers, Japan could even potentially destroy you at Queensland.

We are coming up with some good ideas with Russia but it is the weakest power and I think the bigger takeaway here is that there are ways to shore up Moscow power (fighters from UK, bombers from USA) such that a takeover isn’t going to happen on G5-G6, but that if you do this, you scatter the punch of the US all over the board until midgame, at least.  If the bombers are moving across the world, they can’t position to fight very well.

taamvan makes an excellent point that I would like to touch on. If Russia stacks Novgorod, Germany will wipe it out and be soundly in position to strike Moscow. Once Germany takes Novgorod, all they have to do is use SBR’s to level Moscow, which will already be weak because of the annihilation of the forces in Novgorod. Germany would move with ease onto Moscow.

As for for purchasing bombers with the US, which is what this thread is about, If you make a move to Russia with them, then for the first 4 or 5 turns, Japan goes on uncontested in the Pacific, which is a no go. Can you imagine if the allied forces did both of these things in one game? The axis player would have a field day. It wouldn’t even be fair.

If Germany is committed to taking Novgorod on G3, they will. I don’t believe that there is any way that Russia could stop that. If you put forces in Vyborg or Karelia, German planes can support the 7 infantry in a G2 attack on one or both of those territories, with the ability to support a G3 attack on Novgorod. Then you have a Baltic fleet that can land there, plus your mass of troops from the Baltic States. As Germany if you use the troops from Germany, Poland, and Slovakia, you have a total 16 infantry, 3 artillery, and 2 tanks. You can use 3 tanks from Greater Southern if you didn’t push them into Paris, and you can also use any planes that you have left at the beginning of G3. Germany start with 12 planes. They won’t lose them all and they will have the range and ability to assist in a G3 attack on Novgorod. That is going to be enough to take out the Russian forces in Novgorod. A committed German player, will take Novgorod. Russia does not have the time to stop this from happening, and after Germany takes Novgorod and destroys Russia’s primary mass of forces, they will not be able to catch up. Germany will SBR Moscow, and Moscow if they are lucky would have no more than a fraction of what Germany could crush them with.

If Russia moved all of the units that you are stating here, Germany would merely need to continue moving past Novgorod right on to Moscow, which will draw Russia to either move our of Novgorod in defense or to attack the German units. Which is a win win for Germany because their other infantry and units from Greater Southern and the tanks and mechs from the Paris attack would be right behind. They would easily move into Novgorod and crush whatever Russian forces were left. It is a lose lose for Russia.

How did you double the infantry from your previous calculations?