The Afrika Korps

@Omega1759:

@Marshmallow:

@Omega1759:

I used to retreat the fleet to the red sea, but that approach does nothing to deter sea lion and the fleet often gets locked out of the Med.

The fleet can only get locked out of the Med if you let it.

Marsh

Half true. The Italians can usually take Trans Jordan to make time. The Germans can deny you more easily than 91. I also find the Far East British ship to have uses in the Pacific. Again, it’s not a senseless strategy but I like to put more pressure on Germany as opposed to falling back. itU does not matter as much for as long as you maintain control of Egypt.

If you get locked out of the Med as the UK it is always your fault unless you took a lot of German planes out when your fleet was being sunk. If you move to 81 on UK1 and deploy blockers to keep Italy from taking Trans Jordan on I1, you are guaranteed of being able to return to the Med on UK2. If you stay out longer than UK2, it’s still your fault that you got locked out of the Med because you didn’t go back in when you had the opportunity.

Marsh

I agree, Marsh.  Blockers are wonderful things when you need time, and retreating into the Red Sea only invites invasion of Trans Jordan, which means valuable units and time are spent trying to retake it so that your navy can get right back where it started.  Whoever controls the Mediterranean has a much easier time controlling Africa.

@ShadowHAwk:

@Marshmallow:

@Omega1759:

@Marshmallow:

@Omega1759:

I used to retreat the fleet to the red sea, but that approach does nothing to deter sea lion and the fleet often gets locked out of the Med.

The fleet can only get locked out of the Med if you let it.

Marsh

Half true. The Italians can usually take Trans Jordan to make time. The Germans can deny you more easily than 91. I also find the Far East British ship to have uses in the Pacific. Again, it’s not a senseless strategy but I like to put more pressure on Germany as opposed to falling back. itU does not matter as much for as long as you maintain control of Egypt.

If you get locked out of the Med as the UK it is always your fault unless you took a lot of German planes out when your fleet was being sunk. If you move to 81 on UK1 and deploy blockers to keep Italy from taking Trans Jordan on I1, you are guaranteed of being able to return to the Med on UK2. If you stay out longer than UK2, it’s still your fault that you got locked out of the Med because you didn’t go back in when you had the opportunity.

Marsh

Whats the big deal with italy taking trans jordan UK1. Let them.
You got 4 fighters + 2 tacticals available if you took India air to afrika. He got 2 destroyer + 2 cruisers + 1 BB in defence so you sink his entire fleet and take trans jordan back.

If he only moves 1 transport there you sink it and destroy the land units also. Italy losing all of its med assets while UK retrains its fleet and moves in with a powerfull fleet the round after isnt bad at all it just ensures that the med is then UK only and italy isnt going anywhere. You can even start sending the air back to india to defend against japan.

You would attack with 4 fighters and 2 tacticals against 2 destroyer, 2 cruisers and 1 BB? That’s dicey, you have 28% chance of losing all that air.

If this battle fails while Germany has a Sea Lion opener, pretty sure that both Egypt and India fall easily (provided that you protect London)

Bottom line is that you can’t reinforce that red sea fleet effectively unless if you build that IC in Egypt and pour considerable resources in there (I say considerable because 98 is in range of all Axis air forces and the Italian fleet) . For as long as sea lion is a threat (and while the Italian fleet is alive), it’s impossible or hazardous to build that IC and the significant fleet build up that must go with it.

What do you do if Italy takes Trans Jordan, lands in force in Alexandria and Germany lands its air in Alexandria to protect the landing? You may be able to reinforce Egypt with the planes (so you have to leave the Italian fleet alone), but again, the fleet is locked out and has to sail away to get out of range of the German air force.

US units can reinforce the 92 fleet as soon as they enter the war, that allows the UK to produce land units in Africa and the Middle East, while landing some troops in Europe.  Canada can reinforce a 91 fleet in only 1 turn, with an existing IC, if needed.

@Marshmallow:

@Omega1759:

@Marshmallow:

@Omega1759:

I used to retreat the fleet to the red sea, but that approach does nothing to deter sea lion and the fleet often gets locked out of the Med.

The fleet can only get locked out of the Med if you let it.

Marsh

Half true. The Italians can usually take Trans Jordan to make time. The Germans can deny you more easily than 91. I also find the Far East British ship to have uses in the Pacific. Again, it’s not a senseless strategy but I like to put more pressure on Germany as opposed to falling back. itU does not matter as much for as long as you maintain control of Egypt.

If you get locked out of the Med as the UK it is always your fault unless you took a lot of German planes out when your fleet was being sunk. If you move to 81 on UK1 and deploy blockers to keep Italy from taking Trans Jordan on I1, you are guaranteed of being able to return to the Med on UK2. If you stay out longer than UK2, it’s still your fault that you got locked out of the Med because you didn’t go back in when you had the opportunity.

Marsh

If you deploy blockers on UK 1, you are guaranteed to get back in, but is this any help at all?

You lose the blockers, which weaken your fleet. Are you sure to be able to get back in on UK2? The Italian fleet and air force is still there which I think overpower your fleet. If you are counting on a UK1 Egypt build, then that opens up sea lion or a sea lion threat that will prevent you from using that IC to build the needed additions to that fleet.

It might be good to study the UK 1 behavior of highly ranked league players to see what they do in the Med.

Sink one of the Italian destroyers + transport on UK1 and he will be down to 1 destroyer, 2 cruisers, and 1 battleship.  That can be easily wiped out on UK2 if you brought over your Indian planes.  On average you would lose 3 UK planes and Italy has no chance to prevent the British from reclaiming the Med in the early game.  Egypt should not fall in the early game unless the Allies goof, there is horrible dice rolling, or the Germans spend considerably to support the efforts.

@Arthur:

Sink one of the Italian destroyers + transport on UK1 and he will be down to 1 destroyer, 2 cruisers, and 1 battleship.  That can be easily wiped out on UK2 if you brought over your Indian planes.  On average you would lose 3 UK planes and Italy has no chance to prevent the British from reclaiming the Med in the early game.  Egypt should not fall in the early game unless the Allies goof, there is horrible dice rolling, or the Germans spend considerably to support the efforts.

How do you wipe it out if your fleet is lock outside of the Med into the red sea?

Omega:  Usually a retreat to the Red Sea is accompanied by bringing over planes from India to help out.  If you can also get a bomber to Gibraltar, you have sufficient force to hit a Italy navy parked next to Egypt.  Careful ship blocking can be used to prevent Germany or Italy from capturing Gibraltar.  The moves have to be well executed, but usually they work marvelously.

If I don’t do Taronto, then my philosophy would be to give Italy enough rope to hang itself. If the Italian navy leaves the comforts of their home port (air base) in the first turn UK can generally hit it with the RAF and sink it (making Egypt safe).

@Arthur:

Omega:  Usually a retreat to the Red Sea is accompanied by bringing over planes from India to help out.  If you can also get a bomber to Gibraltar, you have sufficient force to hit a Italy navy parked next to Egypt.  Careful ship blocking can be used to prevent Germany or Italy from capturing Gibraltar.  The moves have to be well executed, but usually they work marvelously.

If you add the bomber it does reduce the odds of a air strike disaster on the Italian fleet (only 6% odds of seeing the fleet surviving). It’s still a battle in which you can lose a number of precious planes.

You don’t worry about removing offensive potential from India? Without air, India has a lot less offensive and defensive flexibility.

A retreat to the Red sea can work, but what are the strategic advantages that a 92 merge does not accomplish?

@WILD:

If I don’t do Taronto,

I think that is rather like coming up with a strategy for getting out of a straight jacket. Don’t get into one in the first place!

@simon33:

@WILD:

If I don’t do Taronto,

I think that is rather like coming up with a strategy for getting out of a straight jacket. Don’t get into one in the first place!

LOL, sometimes you don’t get a choice, they just show up and take you away to the funny farm where life is wonderful all the time……or you just get sick of the same old dance.

Back to the point, a Taranto with a 92 merge is possible under the right scenario. Keep the CV out, take the plane which has to land on it as a casualty but that also assumes there is fleet in SZ110 to merge with.

Back to the very original point of the Afrika Korps plan, we can assume that an I2 capture of Italy was due to either extremely good/bad dice rolls or inexperience on the side of the Allies.  It is not the result of a good general strategy that can be repeated regularly against strong opponents.

Thanks for the details Afrika Korps.  You will need to start testing this strategy against higher quality opponents since almost anything is going to succeed against relative novices.  The top League players have several hundred games played in their lifetimes.  They very rarely make a significant blunder.  Letting Egypt fall on I2 is a massive blunder and almost any Axis strategy would succeed at that point.

ShadowHawk, I absolutely agree that this game needs more experimentation in early stage strategies.  My point was that the testing of the new strategies need to be done against competent opponents since almost anything will work against people who have only played the game a few times.  You learn so much when you go against an opponent who has many years of experience with a wide variety of situations.  I keep getting better as I lose in League matches.  I often gain nothing when I win.

Sure, Afrika Korps.  Try downloading TripleA and play a few rounds against the AI so that you are acquainted with the software and playing on a computer.  For the match, let’s used the G40 balance mod since that is the most popular and fairest version for League play.  Lots of strats work on a no-bid no-balanced game, but only a good one can work in a BM match.

The balance mod has several extra Allied objectives so they end up getting a bit more money during the game.  I think that is better than the other option of having extra units to start the game.