@SS:
I know that about R and UK gettin bombed like crazy. I’ll have to look at setup. I think Germany can’t bomb Russia until turn 2. Anyway this is what I’ll go for.
Stg Bomber A0 D0 C5 M7-8 @2 1D6
H Bomber A3 D0 C8 M7-8 @3 2 D6-2 pick dogfight or combatYes I see we’re the H Bomber gets the extra A3 and the damage is just a bit higher
In ave than the stg bomber.Typing from phone so disregard misspells.
I’ll post pics of map and all results of SBR’s when we start a new game.
In fact it is not an higher average 5 vs 5.5 but you can get an higher result 10 vs 8:
Roll D6 + 2 Roll 2D6-2
1 3 2 0
2 4 3 12=2
3 5 4 23=6
4 6 5 34=12
5 7 6 45=20
6 8 7 56=30
8 65=30
9 74=28
10 83=24
11 92=18
12 101=10
Sum: 33 180
Avg: /6 = 5.5 /36 = 5
Or (3+8)/2= 5.5 (0+10)/2= 5
I clearly prefer 2D6-2 because of the wider spectre of possibilities.
From zero to 10, with a more natural average of damage around 4-5-6 IPCs damage from (“6”-“7”-“8” roll).
Your Heavy bomber can totally miss (0) or hit the bull’s eyes (10).
Find it more historical.
With D+2 method, it is always 1 out 6 odds of any results with minimum damage of 3 IPCs.
Seems there was no garantee to hit target on a bombing run. So, this is less historical.
@SS:
I know that about R and UK gettin bombed like crazy. I’ll have to look at setup. I think Germany can’t bomb Russia until turn 2. Anyway this is what I’ll go for.
Stg Bomber A0 D0 C5 M7-8 @2 1D6
H Bomber A3 D0 C8 M7-8 @3 2 D6-2 pick dogfight or combatYes I see we’re the H Bomber gets the extra A3 and the damage is just a bit higher
In ave than the stg bomber.Typing from phone so disregard misspells.
I’ll post pics of map and all results of SBR’s when we start a new game.
Do you play next week end?
Yes, we did play but it was are normal scheduled 39 game.
In process of setting up the 40 game again and playing soon. I’ll post results when it happens.
Will try one more game for now. Some guys want to play with normal values and see if the game also goes faster.
@SS:
Yes, we did play but it was are normal scheduled 39 game.
In process of setting up the 40 game again and playing soon. I’ll post results when it happens.
Will try one more game for now. Some guys want to play with normal values and see if the game also goes faster.
Great!
Here is my time forcast:
Fg doesn’t affect game in itself. But more units increase length of a game.
Cheaper, so you can buy more.
TcB makes for longer combat because higher value unit are taken out of combat.
StB makes a faster game because it reduces power projection so you don’t have to look in a directions to see what battle they can thrown in. Lonely TPs need a shorter double check before leaving them in a SZ.
@SS:
Yes, we did play but it was are normal scheduled 39 game.
In process of setting up the 40 game again and playing soon. I’ll post results when it happens.
Will try one more game for now. Some guys want to play with normal values and see if the game also goes faster.
Was it faster?
Yes it is going faster. We want to play few more games and with enough players should get 10 turns ( Axis need 15 VC’s at end of turn 10 for victory ) in for 8 hours. Thats the goal. May end soon do to surrender.
Those Fig Tac values are not to high for what Im paying for planes in game now ?
I got Fig A6 D6 M4 C9 TAC A6 D4 M4 C10 pick piece Stg. B A8 D2 M6 C11 H. Bomb. A8 D2 M7 C12
You got Fig A6 D8 M4 C9 4 or less hits plane first and TAC A6 D6 4 or less pick piece. All planes from either side can retreat correct ?
@SS:
Those Fig Tac values are not to high for what Im paying for planes in game now ?
I got Fig A6 D6 M4 C9 TAC A6 D4 M4 C10 pick piece Stg. B A8 D2 M6 C11 H. Bomb. A8 D2 M7 C12
You got Fig A6 D8 M4 C9 4 or less hits plane first and TAC A6 D6 4 or less pick piece. All planes from either side can retreat correct ?
Do you play with a two-planes carrier? Or a Carrier which hold up to three Fg or TcB?
If you already play with a TCB A6 D4 pick piece. I’m fine with it. It is simpler your way, any hit work same way.
I thought you were using OOB values for Fg in D12.
It seems it is not the case.
Hence my question is about Carrier.
With Dark Sky strategy, it is already difficult to keep up fleet response against A8 bombers.
If you only have 2 Fgs D6 and Carrier D4 or D5, you are way more toasted playing Allies against Germany.
You can still play Fg 4 or less hits plane first, if you like.
It allows to keep the air combat dynamics.
It doesn’t change anything against bombers only attack against naval units however.
I only allowed attacking air retreat.
Did you play both side can air retreat? How many TTy can defender retreat?
On speed, if you already play with TacB picking piece, what was time-dragging compared to the older game with C5?
@Baron:
@SS:
Those Fig Tac values are not to high for what Im paying for planes in game now ?
I got Fig A6 D6 M4 C9 TAC A6 D4 M4 C10 pick piece Stg. B A8 D2 M6 C11 H. Bomb. A8 D2 M7 C12
You got Fig A6 D8 M4 C9 4 or less hits plane first and TAC A6 D6 4 or less pick piece. All planes from either side can retreat correct ?
Do you play with a two-planes carrier? Or a Carrier which hold up to three Fg or TcB?
Playing with 2 plane Carriers unless you get the Super Carrier tech which holds 3 figs.
If you already play with a TCB A6 D4 pick piece. I’m fine with it. It is simpler your way, any hit work same way.
I thought you were using OOB values for Fg in D12.
It seems it is not the case.
Hence my question is about Carrier.
With Dark Sky strategy, it is already difficult to keep up fleet response against A8 bombers.
If you only have 2 Fgs D6 and Carrier D4 or D5, you are way more toasted playing Allies against Germany.You can still play Fg 4 or less hits plane first, if you like.
It allows to keep the air combat dynamics.It doesn’t change anything against bombers only attack against naval units however.
I only allowed attacking air retreat.
Did you play both side can air retreat? How many TTy can defender retreat?Attacker only on retreat.
On speed, if you already play with TacB picking piece, what was time-dragging compared to the older game with C5?
Nothing as of now with mostly OOB prices. What slowed the game down with the C5 Bomber was the lower costs of pieces and the fighter changes that you had me test.
Thanks.
Help understand.
So what reason make you change Fg to A6 D6 C9?
Instead of well rounded C10, Fg A6 D8 C10?
@Baron:
Thanks.
Help understand.
So what reason make you change Fg to A6 D6 C9?
Instead of well rounded C10, Fg A6 D8 C10?Kept it simple. 9, 10, 11, 12. Could make fig C10 D7 for the extra 1 in cost.
@SS:
@Baron:
Thanks.
Help understand.
So what reason make you change Fg to A6 D6 C9?
Instead of well rounded C10, Fg A6 D8 C10?Kept it simple. 9, 10, 11, 12. Could make fig C10 D7 for the extra 1 in cost.
Don’t you feel it is broken?
Against A8 bombers or heavys.
If you only have 2 Fgs D6 and Carrier D4 or D5, you are way more toasted playing Allies against Germany.And for increasing speed, I would try to put Fg, TcB, StB, 10 IPCs and Heavy 12 IPCs.
Seems easier and faster to calculate.You have D12 on your side to make adjustments.
For example, StB A6 D2 M6-7 C10, Heavy A8 D2 M7-8 C12
TcB A6 D4 M4-5 C10 and Fg A6 D7 M4-5 C10.
@Baron:
@SS:
@Baron:
Thanks.
Help understand.
So what reason make you change Fg to A6 D6 C9?
Instead of well rounded C10, Fg A6 D8 C10?Kept it simple. 9, 10, 11, 12. Could make fig C10 D7 for the extra 1 in cost.
Don’t you feel it is broken?
Don’t know yet.
Against A8 bombers or heavys.I don’t like bombers A8 but then if I change it it slows game down do to lower Attack values for planes. Guys like the A8 A6 values for bomber and fig.
If you only have 2 Fgs D6 and Carrier D4 or D5, you are way more toasted playing Allies against Germany.Our games so far have no Germany bombers really attacking allies. In this game there is more Russian pieces so Germany focusing more there.
And for increasing speed, I would try to put Fg, TcB, StB, 10 IPCs and Heavy 12 IPCs.
Seems easier and faster to calculate.This I will put in game now and make Fig D7.
You have D12 on your side to make adjustments.
But I also added 8 planes per sides. Did your conversion. 3 figs = 1 fig and also made some figs Tacs because there weren’t any in game. i looked at a 39 setup and another 40 setup to see how many total planes were in those setups. Its nice to see the extra planes. doesn’t seem to offset nothing yet.
I have to decide if I’m going to add in game, roll a 4 or less for fig get to take a plane as a kill.
Where do you start do give your combat values for planes?
I simply make an assumption that OOB G40 was the reference.
But I feel Global War is different.
You say you don’t have TcB in initial set-up.
Where is the basic set-up for your map?
If you make a conversion from 2 planes to get a third but don’t change Fighter combat values, I doubt you will get a more balanced game.
When I developed my idea for Fg making hit directly on aircraft, I first try to divide the combat power in half because of increased casualties:
(D12) Fg A3 D4 C7. And it was possible to add 3 Fgs on a Carrier to get almost same combat factor for same cost than 2 Fg A6 D8 C10
3 Fgs A9 D12 C21, 3 hits vs 2 Fgs A12 D16 C20, 2 hits
At least on defense, 10 D4 vs 7 D8 gives odds of survival around: 50% vs 48%.
On a AACalc, you get similar odds of survival between them.
So, 10 divided by 7 gives 1.43 which is near 1.5 so for 2 OOB Fgs I add a third one (2*1.5=3).
But it is not the same if you use higher combat values for Fighter.
You will not preserve the initial set-up balance if adding Fg.
For TcB, I used this scale down 2 pts for each IPC (using 10 IPCs Fg as basis):
10 IPCs A6 D8
9 IPCs A6 D6
8 IPCs A6 D4 or A4 D6
TcB will be better on offense compared to Fg, so I chose A6 D4.
Assuming attack is costlier than defense, it makes sense if Fg A4 D4 C7 to get TcB A6 D4 C8
So, when Fg A4 is attacking TcB D4, it is same values (but since Fg cheaper, it remains better unit)
TcB A6 attacking Fg D4, TcB is better but because I use Fg hit directly aircraft there was no issue about it.
However, with StBs it is another case:
StB A8 C12 vs Fg D4 C7 was quite an issue.
I partly solved it knowing that 7A8 worth same in Calc as 10D4.
So, a 12 IPCs bomber is not better than defending Fg.
And not at all on offence considering that 12 Fg A4 are better than 7 StB A8.
OOB StB A8 C12 vs Fg D8 C10 is on par in absolute value, but since Fg is cheaper we still view it as better on defense.
However, I was not totally happy of my number.
I rather like something which clearly show how Fg are superior on defense against bombers.
Something like bomber C5 totally solved it.
If it have no regular combat value. Problem solved.
You keep it for SBR dogfight.
A StB A1 or A2 C5 (is the lowest combat number) against Fg D4 C7 it makes a very good match, if not perfect.
TcB A2 C8 (is the same lowest combat number but higher cost) showed it is not better than StB against Fg in air combat.
But TcB A6 D4 C8 can be part of regular combat and pick ground unit upon hit, which is pretty descriptive on what can be done from air.
All units can fight air vs air.
IDK if these cost are really slowing things down because 7+8+5 gives 20 IPCs or 7+8 gives 15.
Also 7 and 8 are usual numbers for TPs and DDs.
IMO it solved all symbolic issues with combat values.
Now if I look at Fg A6 D6 or D7 C10 it is weaker on defense against StB A8 D2 C11.
And your game is safe because German player don’t play Dark Sky to make abusive Heavys power projection.
But your weaker Fg D7 being on 2 planes Carrier cannot compete against a flock of StBs A8 M7-8 C12.
Using correctly such Superweapon, your US fleet wouldn’t dare to land in North Africa.
Running a few simulations even with Fg D8, it requires 3 scrambling Fgs and even best 6 Fgs to get a good cover.
Buying A0 D4 C16 Carrier for 2 Fgs D8 was difficult to manage.
36 IPCs: 3 StBs A24, 3 hits vs 1 full Carrier D20, 4 hits is quite enough to survived: 20% vs 75%, but you don’t bring any other units.
Nonetheless you have a few room for TPs.
If you drop to 3 StBs A24 vs D16 (2 Fg D6 + CV D4): 46% vs 48%, you cannot buy any TPs.
Any invasion force would be weaker than StBs on the same IPCs basis.
Number below makes for 6 StBs vs 2 Full Carrier with Fg A6 D6.
http://calc.axisandallies.org/?mustland=0&abortratio=0&saveunits=0&strafeunits=0&aInf=&aArt=&aArm=&aFig=&aBom=6&aTra=&aSub=&aDes=&aCru=&aCar=&aBat=&adBat=&dInf=&dArt=&dArm=&dFig=&dBom=&dTra=2&dSub=&dDes=&dCru=4&dCar=2&dBat=&ddBat=&ool_att=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Sub-SSub-Des-Fig-JFig-Cru-Bom-HBom-Car-dBat-Tra&ool_def=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Tra-Bom-HBom-Sub-SSub-Des-Car-Cru-Fig-JFig-dBat&battle=Run&rounds=&reps=10000&luck=pure&ruleset=AA1942&territory=&round=1&pbem=
If you add 2 StBs for 2 TPs+4 Infs you gets 95% vs 5% odds of survival. So you are completely toasted.
So Germany may repel any US invasion if Fg are A6 D6.
And you only bring 2 TPs! A single TP for each fully loaded Carrier.
It is the best I can do to show the issue of a too low defense factor for Fighters
If I can get figs at C10 A6 D8, nobody will buy bombers. I’ll take fig D8 before a Bomber D2.
This is your suggestion.
Fig A6 D8 M4 C10 4 or less roll get to hit a plane on A and D.
Tac A6 D4 M4 C10 can pick hit on ground or naval.
Stg. Bomber A8 D2 M6 C10 1D6
H. Bomber A8 D2 M7 C12 1D6 +2
Dog fighting ? Fig A3 D3
Tac A1
Stg. B A1
H. Bom A2
Or are you suggesting using normal A D values for dog fighting ?
I have Carriers at A5 D5 M2 C14 2 hits.
Basic setup is under Deaths Head thread just below mine in Global War 40 click on page 1
But I’ve added some pieces to game and added more ground in SA do to Italy having no pressure on them in games.
@SS:
If I can get figs at C10 A6 D8, nobody will buy bombers. I’ll take fig D8 before a Bomber D2.
This is your suggestion.
Fig A6 D8 M4 C10 4 or less roll get to hit a plane on A and D.
Tac A6 D4 M4 C10 can pick hit on ground or naval.
Stg. Bomber A8 D2 M6 C10 1D6
H. Bomber A8 D2 M7 C12 1D6 +2Dog fighting ? Fig A3 D3
Tac A1
Stg. B A1
H. Bom A2
Or are you suggesting using normal A D values for dog fighting ?I have Carriers at A5 D5 M2 C14 2 hits.
Basic setup is under Deaths Head thread just below mine in Global War 40 click on page 1
But I’ve added some pieces to game and added more ground in SA do to Italy having no pressure on them in games.
What is weird is the whole G40 OOB is based on these bombers values at 12 IPCs:
If I can get figs at C10 A6 D8, nobody will buy bombers. I’ll take fig D8 before a Bomber D2.
And someone decided to try a massive StBs purchase and developped Dark Sky strategy.
In addition, your StBs A8 D2 is cheaper, and same cost as Fg A6 D8 would.
For dogfighting in SBR I would not change that much (but you have D12 digit):
Dog fighting ? Fig A3 D3
Fig A3 D3
Tac A2
Stg. B A1
H. Bom A2
or
Fig A4 D4
Tac A2
StB A2
H. B A3
Carriers at A5 D5 M2 C14 2 hits.
It helps a bit with Fg D6, but full Carrier defense is not as high as it can be (compared to G40 OOB full Carrier with Fgs)
Carriers at A5 , really?
What the historical evolution of your Fighter vs Bomber units.
Does HBG or Global War have different OOB values compared to G40?
Global are Fig C10 Tac C11 Stg. B C12.
You said in past posts why not make all 3 planes C10 and H. bom 12. instead of 9, 10, 11, 12
I’m just gonna go with Fig A6 D8 M4 C10 4 roll or less hits plane
Tac A6 D5 M4 C10 pick piece
Stg. B A8 D2 M6 C11 1D6
H. Bom A8 D3 M7 C12 1D6 +2 or 2D6 -2.
Fig A4 D4
Tac A2
Bom A2
H. Bom A3 for dog fighting.
Carriers are A0 D5 M2 C14 2 hits. The A5 for carrier was a miss type in last post.
Theres some confusion going a little.
Are you sure of these bomber cost?
Stg. Bomber A8 D2 M6 C11 1D6
Heavy Bom A8 D3 M7 C12 1D6 +2 or 2D6 -2.
Just on a simple look, I will always buy Heavy because 1 IPC higher is not a big deal and +1M is cool, because on your map a lot of ICs are with 4 TTys away, so M8 with AB bonus is far more valuable and Heavy get D3 instead of D2. Damage +2, also.
It is a lot.
At 10 for St Bomber vs 12 for Heavy with same stats as above, I would probably wonder what is my real need about bombers?
May I saved 2 IPCs going with StB instead or will it be worth because I need an M8 unit?
That would be my inner thoughts if I was going to play…
Yes agree. I make the Stg Bomber C10 ?
@SS:
Yes agree. I make the Stg Bomber C10 ?
It is up to you SS.
I just feel that on your big map, StBs doing D6 damage can be 10 IPCs.
And you also get an opportunity to see amongst fellow players how it makes for a faster game or not when 3 planes have same 10 IPCs cost.
Easier to count, and easier to change idea just before purchasing without taking too long.
And if you still play with Fg “4” or less hitting planes, you save a few bucks for normal attrition due to this targeting capacity.
