Are Allies doomed from the outset on G40 map?

Can we discuss this matter on your thread?
I don’t want derail too much from the topic.
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=36715.msg1461349#msg1461349

I’ve noticed a theme; Those who declare war on the US on J1 think axis are dominant.

A local rule could be that they aren’t allowed to. That would allow a lot of US starting forces to escape.

@SubmersedElk:

I typically do a J2 and I still think Axis are dominant. It’s actually because Axis are so dominant that I prefer the less-risky J2, since Axis are better off not taking any extra risk - even small ones - to their dominant position.

Then no DOW on UK and ANZAC, J1? What other moves?

Do your opponents send the US Hawaii and Philippines fleets to Queensland?

@SubmersedElk:

I’ve seen the Phillipines fleet move to Queensland or more directly back to Hawaii, and also seen the DD used as a blocker in the DEI. Hawaii either gets sent to the Atlantic, Queensland, or Western US. There’s another thread here that details my J2 moves and the resulting positions, I call it J2/I2 strategy. Having a mid-sized fleet in Carolines at the end of J1 in that method tends to discourage any US fleet from being in either Queensland or in Hawaii unless he’s going full Pacific (at which point he’s played his hand first, so on G2 you can adjust appropriately).

The US destroyer is only a blocker if Japan declares war against the US. If Japan skips the US in its declaration, the destroyer can be ignored and killed later – it has nowhere to go that it is safe.

Marsh

Hey guys,

I did not follow the entire discussion, however in my opinion it all depends on the bid:

Yes, the standard map favors the Axis, thus bids for the Allies should be installed.

So to me the only question is what bid is necessary to equialize the position. The recent season has shown that even 20-24 bids for the Allies did not stop the Axis from winning in games where they were played properly.

Thus I guess the truth lies currently in the 25-30 range. I could even be in the 30-35 range.

However at a certain point, the bid will be high enough to equalize the game.

Question: If offered Allies +48, is there anybody who would not prefer the Allies then?

@JDOW:

However at a certain point, the bid will be high enough to equalize the game.

That’s true, of course, but the question is “At what cost?” For example, assuming that your proposed bid of 48 is enough for “balance” in a game between two skilled, evenly matched players. You may get “balance,” but you also get a less dynamic early-game experience.

Take, for example, the mediterranean. With a typical bid in the high teens, it is possible for Allies to completely stifle any real chance Italy has to contest the mediterranean–this even before Italy has a chance to move! What should be a dynamic, highly contested theater instead becomes a stagnant pond–removing strategic choices from the Axis player and forcing Italy down predictable path every game. Less fun, in my opinion.

There are other, better ways to balance the game, in my opinion–a topic for a different thread :)

True that there are better ways.

For exactly that reason a new, so called “balanced” version is currently played by a couple of players in the league. This version does not work with extra units but with changed NOs and adjustment in SBR rules for instance.

here is the list of changes:

Revised Air Raid Rules: Fighters attack and defend at 2. Strategic and tactical bombers attack at 1.

Revised Capital Capture Rules: The capture of a capital results in plunder of the enemy’s PUs only the first time that capital is taken. Subsequent recapture of the same capital results in the enemy’s PUs being destroyed.

Additional National Objectives

Russia

*  3 PUs if Russia is at war with European Axis and there are no non-Russian Allied units present in any originally Russian territory.
*  3 PUs for each originally German, Italian, or Pro-Axis neutral territory that Russia controls in mainland Europe (This replaces Russia’s  “Spread of Communism” objective).
*  2 PUs for each of the following Lend-Lease lanes that is “open” (i.e., the specified Sea Zone has no enemy warships and the corresponding territory is Allied controlled) when Russia is at war with European Axis: (1) sz 125, Archangel ; (2) sz 80, Persia; (3) sz 5, Amur (This replaces Russia’s original “Lend Lease” objective).
*  An additional 2 PUs per each open Lend-Lease if Japan has declared war on Russia.

Japan

*  5 PUs if Axis controls Dutch New Guinea, New Guinea, New Britain, and Solomon Islands. (This replaces Japan’s original “Strategic Perimeter” objective).
*  5 PUs if Axis controls Midway, Wake Island, and Guam.

USA

*  5 PUs if USA is at war and Allies control Midway, Wake Island, Guam.
*  5 PUs if USA is at war and Allies control Marshall Islands, Caroline Islands, Paulau Island, Marianas.
*  5 PUs if Allies control at least 2 of: Normandy Bordeaux, Holland Belgium, Southern France, and USA has at least one land unit in any of these territories.
*  5 PUs if Allies control Morocco, Algeria, and Tunisia, and USA has at least one land unit in any of these territories.

UK

*  3 PUs for UK Europe if Allies control at least 2 of: Sicily, Sardinia, Greece.
*  3 PUs for UK Europe if Malta, Crete, and Cyprus are Allied or pro-Allied controlled.
*  3 PUs for UK Europe if there are no enemy submarines in the Atlantic, excluding szs 112 and 125-127.
*  3 PUs for UK Pacific when at war with the Japanese if: (1) British control West India and either Egypt or South Africa; and (2) there are no enemy submarines in the western half of the Indian Ocean (sz71,…,sz81).

Italy

*  3 PUs if Malta, Cyprus, and Crete are Axis controlled.

ANZAC

*  3 PUs if ANZAC is at war with Japan, and Allies (not including the Dutch) control Dutch New Guinea, New Guinea, New Britain, and Solomon Islands. (This replaces ANZAC’s “Strategic Islands” Objective).
*  3 PUs if ANZAC is at war with Japan, and Gilbert Islands, Fiji, and Samoa are allied controlled.

New Unit - Marines: Cost 5; Attack at 1 (2 during amphibious assaults; no bonus from artillery); Defend at 2; Can be loaded onto cruisers and battleships (1 to a ship). Ships may only bombard the territory they unload their marines into

VICHY FRANCE RULE SET

The G40 Balance Mod may be played with or without the following rule-set, which is included for historical interest.

Game Conditions for Franco-German Armistice

At the beginning of France’s turn, if the following conditions are met, the Franco-German Armistice will occur:

1. Axis must control both France and Normandy Bordeaux;
2. France must control Southern France; and
3. There must be no non-French, Allied units in Southern France.

Game Consequences of Franco-German Armistice

French Territorial Control: At the beginning of France’s first turn in which Armistice conditions are met, all originally French territories not already under Axis control immediately change ownership to Pro-Axis Neutrals, except: (1) French Equatorial Africa; (2) New Hebrides; (2) any French territories containing non-French allied units.

With the exception of Southern France (see discussion of “Zone Libere” below), Vichy French territory works the same way as other Pro-Axis Neutral territory–i.e., an Axis player may capture Vichy French territory and commandeer its forces by moving a land unit into the territory during the non-combat phase of his turn.

Fly-over restrictions applicable to other Neutral territories do not apply to Vichy French territory.

Fleet at Toulon: In addition to the change in French territorial control, the Armistice changes control of the the French fleet in sz 93, from French to Pro-Axis neutral. The Vichy French fleet maintains a strictly defensive posture. It may not be moved. It may not be captured by the Axis. The fleet is immediately destroyed if any power, other than the Free French, occupies Southern France

“Zone Libre”: Any Axis occupation of Southern France following the Armistice results in a disbandment of the Vichy French forces and a scuttling of the Vichy French fleet in sz 93. The “Zone Libre” army and fleet will revert back to Free-French control if either: (1) France is liberated by the Allies; or (2) Free-French land forces enter Southern France during the combat-movement phase of France’s turn.

Armistice’s Effect on National Objectives: Vichy French territory is considered “Axis” or “Pro-Axis” controlled for purposes of Italy’s “North Africa” and “Roman Empire” Objectives. Any direct takeover of French Indo China by Japan still negates Japan’s “Trade With America” Objective, even if the territory was already Pro-Axis Neutral.

Liberation of France: The Allied liberation of France effectively terminates the Armistice. Any territory and forces still under Vichy French control (including any surviving fleet in sz 93) revert back to Free French control.

me likey :D

@regularkid:

@JDOW:

However at a certain point, the bid will be high enough to equalize the game.

That’s true, of course, but the question is “At what cost?” For example, assuming that your proposed bid of 48 is enough for “balance” in a game between two skilled, evenly matched players. You may get “balance,” but you also get a less dynamic early-game experience.

Take, for example, the mediterranean. With a typical bid in the high teens, it is possible for Allies to completely stifle any real chance Italy has to contest the mediterranean–this even before Italy has a chance to move! What should be a dynamic, highly contested theater instead becomes a stagnant pond–removing strategic choices from the Axis player and forcing Italy down predictable path every game. Less fun, in my opinion.

There are other, better ways to balance the game, in my opinion–a topic for a different thread :)

Well…. Even if UK knocks out the Italian fleet, Cairo can still be taken with the proper help from Germany (if it takes Southern France R1).

If you want to balance the game, give the allies a 20 bid and then also provide the US +5, increasing by +5, every turn.  By turn 10, the US would be pulling down 120.  If the Axis hasn’t won by then, then they will be in real trouble.  This change means the Axis can’t “sit on its butt” so to speak by expanding to economic parity and just wear the allies down.

have actually play tested the automatic ‘increasing USA income’ a few times. it doesn’t work quite the way one would think. Since there’s no way for axis to meaningfully contest the increasing income, it transforms a game that is virtually impossible for allies to win into a game that is virtually impossible for allies to lose (except in cases where axis have achieved their VCs by round 8-ish).

Also is kinda a missed opportunity to use contestable income to make the game more dynamic and fun

All the remedial methods proposed are very aggressive in terms of balance (bid on board, bid in cash, extra NOs (fun!), free income) imply that the game is radically broken and virtually unwinnable, and my experience playing 50+ games of global with no house rules and no modifications does not support this conclusion.

Been following this thread as best as possible so sorry if this was already mentioned and I missed it…

But what happens if Allies spend most of their money on the Atlantic with only a few capital ships in the Pacific to join up with Anzac. The Atlantic money goes to transports and capital ships and then tanks and infantry. With England’s help, you hit Spain and Gibraltar  (for the naval base). Then every single turn the US can land more stuff and set up a nonstop funnel. If Russia does its job then axis should not be able to keep up on both fronts. If Germany sent its Dark Skies bombers to try to stop the funnel, then fine you can wipe each other out and still land more US troops the next turn.

My friends and I have done this to each other and the Spain landing always overwhelms the Axis eventually. …

What have you all experienced when trying this?

@Talleyrand19:

Been following this thread as best as possible so sorry if this was already mentioned and I missed it…

But what happens if Allies spend most of their money on the Atlantic with only a few capital ships in the Pacific to join up with Anzac. The Atlantic money goes to transports and capital ships and then tanks and infantry. With England’s help, you hit Spain and Gibraltar  (for the naval base). Then every single turn the US can land more stuff and set up a nonstop funnel. If Russia does its job then axis should not be able to keep up on both fronts. If Germany sent its Dark Skies bombers to try to stop the funnel, then fine you can wipe each other out and still land more US troops the next turn.

My friends and I have done this to each other and the Spain landing always overwhelms the Axis eventually. …

What have you all experienced when trying this?

Yes, this is a good strategy.  The weak point is then the Germans blitz into the middle east, ignoring Moscow.  They can get an economic advantage and then just sit back and outbuild the allies.

@Karl7:

@Talleyrand19:

Been following this thread as best as possible so sorry if this was already mentioned and I missed it…

But what happens if Allies spend most of their money on the Atlantic with only a few capital ships in the Pacific to join up with Anzac. The Atlantic money goes to transports and capital ships and then tanks and infantry. With England’s help, you hit Spain and Gibraltar  (for the naval base). Then every single turn the US can land more stuff and set up a nonstop funnel. If Russia does its job then axis should not be able to keep up on both fronts. If Germany sent its Dark Skies bombers to try to stop the funnel, then fine you can wipe each other out and still land more US troops the next turn.

My friends and I have done this to each other and the Spain landing always overwhelms the Axis eventually. …

What have you all experienced when trying this?

Yes, this is a good strategy.  The weak point is then the Germans blitz into the middle east, ignoring Moscow.  They can get an economic advantage and then just sit back and outbuild the allies.

Perhaps have Iraq and the Persian territories be treated as True Neutral, just give the UK and USSR extra units to make up the potential difference.