@CWO:
@Young:
I really want China to build artillery without needing the road, so I was kinda reaching. Is there any acceptable explanation that we could realistically and historically frame this rule around CWO Marc?
There won’t be any more advantages or rules added, just that the ones you see will get tweaked for balance and/or relative historical accuracy.I’d propose changing the current China rule into the following pair of rules (for which I’ve left some values as blanks for you to fill in, depending on which numbers you think would work best).
The Hump
Beginning with the entry of the United States into the war, China can purchase x artillery units per turn, provided that India and Szechwan are both under the control of an Allied power. � This option is available to China regardless of whether or not the Burma Road is open for use by the Allies.Ledo Road
Beginning on turn [y, corresponding roughly to 1944], China can purchase z artillery units per turn, provided that India and Yunnan are both under the control of an Allied power. � This rule only applies when Burma is controlled by an Axis power, and it does not require Szechwan to be under Allied control. � When India, Burma, Yunnan and Szechwan are all under Allied control, the normal Burma Road rules apply.The rationale for the first rule is that the Americans were able to fly some supplies to China over the Himalayas. � The upside was that this method did not require the Burma Road to be operational; the downside was that its capacity was limited by the great difficulties involved in flying this route – hence the need to put an x imit on how much artillery can be purchased by China in this way. � As compensation, the Flying Tiger requirement in your original rule has been dropped.
The rationale for the second rule is that the Allies were able to bypass the Japanese-controlled southern sections of the Burma Road by building a road connecting northern India to a northern section of the Burma Road. � By the way, the z number in this rule should be smaller than the x number of the previous rule because the Ledo Road only ended up delivering between one-sixth and one-tenth of the tonnage that was flown in over the Hump air-route (which remained in operation until the end of the war).
Not to dismiss your suggestions, but how about this?
Military Support
China may always purchase artillery units, however, they may also purchase tanks if the Burma road is open.
Here’s an old Strategic Advantage that got dropped in favor of something else, but I’ve found a fun way to include it into the Alternative Rules (also gives the axis more weight when balancing the ARs).
Propaganda
During their purchase new units phase of each turn, Germany may roll an attempt @6 on 1 die in order to influence a Strict Neutral territory of their choice into joining the Nazi cause. They may decide to make an attempt during a turn, or pass and save it for a later round. If / when successful, Germany will immediately take control of the standing army on the chosen strict neutral territory without the need of occupying it first, and without provoking the remaining strict neutral territories into joining the allies. There may only be one successful propaganda attempt per game (this rule is void if all strict neutrals turn pro-axis).
@Young:
Here’s an old Strategic Advantage that got dropped in favor of something else, but I’ve found a fun way to include it into the Alternative Rules (also gives the axis more weight when balancing the ARs).
Propaganda
During their purchase new units phase of each turn, Germany may roll an attempt @6 on 1 die in order to influence a Strict Neutral territory of their choice into joining the Nazi cause. They may decide to make an attempt during a turn, or pass and save it for a later round. If / when successful, Germany will immediately take control of the standing army on the chosen strict neutral territory without the need of occupying it first, and without provoking the remaining strict neutral territories into joining the allies. There may only be one successful propaganda attempt per game (this rule is void if all strict neutrals turn pro-axis).
I actually like this one better than the old one. I could see a lot of fun scenarios with this.
@Young:
Here’s an old Strategic Advantage that got dropped in favor of something else, but I’ve found a fun way to include it into the Alternative Rules (also gives the axis more weight when balancing the ARs).
Propaganda
During their purchase new units phase of each turn, Germany may roll an attempt @6 on 1 die in order to influence a Strict Neutral territory of their choice into joining the Nazi cause. They may decide to make an attempt during a turn, or pass and save it for a later round. If / when successful, Germany will immediately take control of the standing army on the chosen strict neutral territory without the need of occupying it first, and without provoking the remaining strict neutral territories into joining the allies. There may only be one successful propaganda attempt per game (this rule is void if all strict neutrals turn pro-axis).I actually like this one better than the old one. I could see a lot of fun scenarios with this.
Yep, don’t know if you’ve seen the changes to “Russian Winter” and “The Manhattan Project” but these and “Propaganda” are all similar in the sense that you have to earn them.
Some minor changes tonight…
1. I’ve renamed “Alternative Rules” to “Fortunes of War”
2. I’ve renamed “Propaganda” to “Nazi Propaganda”
3. I’ve eliminated the FOW that allows China to build artillery without the road.
Propaganda should be named “Fifth Column” which is exactly the practice that Germany employed to sway neutrals. look it up.
@Imperious:
Propaganda should be named “Fifth Column” which is exactly the practice that Germany employed to sway neutrals. look it up.
I had no idea, and no need to look it up, your intel is good enough for me… thanks for the excellent feedback.
IL,
Would it be proper terminology to call it “German Fifth Column” or “Nazi Fifth Column”?
@Young:
@Young:
Here’s an old Strategic Advantage that got dropped in favor of something else, but I’ve found a fun way to include it into the Alternative Rules (also gives the axis more weight when balancing the ARs).
Propaganda
During their purchase new units phase of each turn, Germany may roll an attempt @6 on 1 die in order to influence a Strict Neutral territory of their choice into joining the Nazi cause. They may decide to make an attempt during a turn, or pass and save it for a later round. If / when successful, Germany will immediately take control of the standing army on the chosen strict neutral territory without the need of occupying it first, and without provoking the remaining strict neutral territories into joining the allies. There may only be one successful propaganda attempt per game (this rule is void if all strict neutrals turn pro-axis).I actually like this one better than the old one. I could see a lot of fun scenarios with this.
Yep, don’t know if you’ve seen the changes to “Russian Winter” and “The Manhattan Project” but these and “Propaganda” are all similar in the sense that you have to earn them.
I think those are all great. I like how you did the Manhattan Project especially, because It’s not a “set” thing that US will succeed.
I am thinking about modifying the R2 pairing to either…
1. weaken both, or
2.strengthen Enigma.
…
Enigma
German submarines now attack at 3 or less,and now receive 3 dice each when conducting convoy disruptions.1. Remove the 3rd die for convoy disruptions
2. give a +1 to all successful convoy disruptions and a 3rd die
2. give a +2 to all successful convoy disruptions and remove the 3rd dieor
Blitzkrieg
Each German mechanized infantry can now blitz alone, and transport an artillery unit up to 2 spaces during their non-combat phase.Also, German tactical bombers now attack @4 or less without needing the support of fighters or tanks (not applicable in sea zones).1. Remove the following. German tactical bombers now attack @4 or less without needing the support of fighters or tanks (not applicable in sea zones)
things i agree are in Navy colour,
German tacs will attack @ 4 99% of time since they are almost always attacking w some tanks or at least FTRs,
this should be balanced enough, btw I am going to play test today
Thanks Mattsk,
If you’re playing with multiple players. the best way to help play test these rules in your games, is to not only play them out, but to ask every player each round “which strategic advantage would you choose if you were playing the nation assigned to decide at this point in the game”? You could also make a chart to compare the bonus income each nation would receive when playing with strategic objectives, and how much would get collected in a regular game using national objectives. Any findings and posted analysis from such research would be tremendously valuable to this house rule project. I’m also play testing it today, and you can be sure that I won’t be making any changes to the first post all day, so the rules are as-is-as-of last night.
Here is a brief over view of our play test today during a 6 player group game.
Before the game and upon review of the rules, someone made a suggestion that if the Russian Winter FOW advantage was based on the chance of a severe winter, than why did they have the choice to skip their roll? the question made sense and we decided to make the roll mandatory every round which made for interesting fun because the Russian player was trying to avoid a 6 while the were at peace with Germany. Also, Germany was cheering for a 6 while they had no units on the Russian territories, I found this dynamic worthy of a change in the rule.
Here is what each nation choose for their strategic advantages round for round:
R1 = Germany - 1A / Russia - 1A / Japan - 1B / USA - 1A / UK - 1B / Italy - 1A / ANZAC - 1B / France - 1A
Notes: Germanys choice was a no brainer, Russia was torn between the two but decided to go with paratroopers (this R1 choice really helps Russia), No brainer for Japan with all the ICs they will buy and lack of ABs, USA had a tough choice as both are a bit lame for them, they decided Paratroopers with all the ABs they own, ANZAC wisely went with 1B, and France took Paratroopers hoping to use their London infantry for a holland attack from Normandy.
R2 = Germany - 2B
Notes: Player wanted Enigma but lost 4 out of 5 subs turn 1, so took Blitzkrieg instead.
R3 = USA - 3B
Notes: Everyone agreed that this was lopsided and all said they would take the 4 infantry in a heartbeat. When I suggested 3, they all agreed that would make the decision harder. This feedback was enough for me to change it back from 4 to 3.
R4 = UK - 4A
Notes: It was suggested that Radar is much better than Commonwealth Aid, and that the pairing may need a tweak to balance it.
R5 = Japan - 5A
Notes: It was suggested that Long Lance Torpedos are much better, than Tokyo Express and that the pairing may need a tweak to balance it.
R6 = USA - 6B
Notes: Very difficult choice for the American player, he eventually to Essex Class Carriers because he had more of those than he did bombers, may need to reduce attack value by 1, but a more tactical strategist may buy bombers with the intent of taking Boeing Fortresses… this and Germany R2 are shaping up to be the most balanced and most difficult choices.
R7 = Germany - 7B
Notes: Everyone was telling him to take Jet fighters because they were losing the Atlantic and Med, but he decided on V rockets because he lost both bombers and wanted to weaken the Russian factory to compliment his blitzkrieg.
R8 = Japan - 8B
At this point in the game, there were not many opportunities to attack with just infantry because players buy mech or tanks on their mainland factories, Bushido was the obvious choice… tweaks may be needed.
R9 - Russia - N/A
Note - Moscow was captured during Germany’s round 8. May need to push Russia up a couple, more testing needed.
R10 - Game ended …due to Allied surrender, as much as everyone wanted to reach R10, it was late and there was no use going on for the allies.
Group decided not to try the Strategic Objectives, or Fortunes of War for now (except for Russian Winter and others we house ruled in the past), because they didn’t want to absorb to much at first, but said that they really want to try them, especially after the post game discussions involving the objectives.
That’s it for now… very tired… gonna make the suggested changes to “Uncle Sam Campaign”, and “Russian Winter”, but that’s it for now.
Hi, unfortunenatly i didn’t have time yesterday so I’ll play test today,
I read your results and this is what i think:
Russian winter
Really should be changed, so that dice rolling will start first time Russia is at war w Germany and will be repeated each round until 6 is rolled. Btw a chance that russian winter will happen before Round3 which is a German DOW standard is 42,13% which is rather high.
Uncle Sam
Agree.
Commonwealth aid
Actually it depends on German strategy and UK strategy. If germany sends several bombers to SBR London each round than it’s better to go for Radar. However, if they are sending those bombers after Russia than UK should go for CA and send units to North Africa from South Africa easier. I often build 1 TNK and 2 Mech in SA for 14 IPC total and this leaves me 19 IPCs (playing with original NOs and keeping all my original tts in Europe). However if this would cost me only 11 IPCs it would leave me 22 IPCs for much greater variability of possible builds.
Tokyo express and Banzai attack
Both of them seem unbalanced so why not try to switch them?
Thanks Mattsk,
Made changes today to the overall structure with the creation of the fortunes of war phase, made progressive advantages much cleaner and tighter, and rearranged as well as modified a few strategic advantages… all based on ideas coming from our play test yesterday and all for the better in my opinion. still a bit rough and in need of refining, but better than last week.
Let me know what you think.
So, I am playtesting right now and this happened:
Germany chose paratroopers, attacked RN in SZ110 with 2 transports loaded w 4 infantry to amph attack London. Also it moved 2 paras from WGermany and moved the whole luftwaffe in (except for 2SBRs which participated in the sea attack and 1 tac that attacked Egypt)
Now, this is what happened: Germany lost the naval battle losing both transports. But paras took London w 1Inf remaining for germany and altough losing a lot planes they now have some 114 IPCs to spend for Barbarossa. I look forward how this will turn out, hovewer I don’t see it very realistic that 2 paratrooper units can take out the whole country.
@Young:
Advantages are chosen at the start of each game round (before Germany’s turn), and become effective immediately. Also, nations must be in control of their capital city in order to choose a strategic advantage, and once a nation’s capital city has been captured, they must forfeit all previously held strategic advantages permanently.
I have two questions and one comment about this.
The questions: Does this means that, for example, if a player loses his capital in round 5 (thereby losing all of the strategic advantages he has gained thus far) and regains it during round 7, he becomes eligible to pick up the strategic advantages that appear in the chart from round 8 onward? And is this intended to give players a strong incentive to defend their capitals?
The comment: This is just to point out that, realistically, the fall of a capital could well affect certain advantages but that it would have no effect on various others, notably on weapons that have been deployed operationally. For example, I can see why some American citizens might think twice about buying war bonds if they see Washington D.C. come under Nazi occupation, but the paratroops of the 82nd and 101st Airborne Divisions in Europe wouldn’t suddenly forget how to do parachute jumps because the American capital had fallen.
So, I am playtesting right now and this happened:
Germany chose paratroopers, attacked RN in SZ110 with 2 transports loaded w 4 infantry to amph attack London. Also it moved 2 paras from WGermany and moved the whole luftwaffe in (except for 2SBRs which participated in the sea attack and 1 tac that attacked Egypt)
Now, this is what happened: Germany lost the naval battle losing both transports. But paras took London w 1Inf remaining for germany and altough losing a lot planes they now have some 114 IPCs to spend for Barbarossa. I look forward how this will turn out, hovewer I don’t see it very realistic that 2 paratrooper units can take out the whole country.
Did this happen round 2? It couldn’t have happened round 1, because Germany only starts with one transport.
@CWO:
@Young:
Advantages are chosen at the start of each game round (before Germany’s turn), and become effective immediately. Also, nations must be in control of their capital city in order to choose a strategic advantage, and once a nation’s capital city has been captured, they must forfeit all previously held strategic advantages permanently.
I have two questions and one comment about this.
The questions: Does this means that, for example, if a player loses his capital in round 5 (thereby losing all of the strategic advantages he has gained thus far) and regains it during round 7, he becomes eligible to pick up the strategic advantages that appear in the chart from round 8 onward? And is this intended to give players a strong incentive to defend their capitals?
The comment: This is just to point out that, realistically, the fall of a capital could well affect certain advantages but that it would have no effect on various others, notably on weapons that have been deployed operationally. For example, I can see why some American citizens might think twice about buying war bonds if they see Washington D.C. come under Nazi occupation, but the paratroops of the 82nd and 101st Airborne Divisions in Europe wouldn’t suddenly forget how to do parachute jumps because the American capital had fallen.
You make an excellent point, thanks for the feed back… what advantages do you consider void, or operational without a capital?
Be sure to review the changes made today, therefore to your point, a nation should not be able to make its progress roll while their Capital is captured.
@Young:
You make an excellent point, thanks for the feed back… what advantages do you consider void, or operational without a capital?
Be sure to review the changes made today, therefore to your point, a nation should not be able to make its progress roll while their Capital is captured.
I’ll review the advantages to see which ones I think would (and would not) be voided by the loss of a capital and I’ll put my results in a post later today.
My first question wasn’t actually about whether a country can make a progress roll when its capital is occupied, it was about whether the advantages it gains after recapturing its capital are retroactive (going back to round 1), or whether they apply from the recapture round onward, or whether they apply from the first complete round after the recapture onward.
@CWO:
@Young:
You make an excellent point, thanks for the feed back… what advantages do you consider void, or operational without a capital?
Be sure to review the changes made today, therefore to your point, a nation should not be able to make its progress roll while their Capital is captured.
I’ll review the advantages to see which ones I think would (and would not) be voided by the loss of a capital and I’ll put my results in a post later today.
My first question wasn’t actually about whether a country can make a progress roll when its capital is occupied, it was about whether the advantages it gains after recapturing its capital are retroactive (going back to round 1), or whether they apply from the recapture round onward, or whether they apply from the first complete round after the recapture onward.
You’re right, I didn’t answer your question properly, here is the revisions I made to the paragraph in question…
Strategic Advantages are chosen during the Fortunes of War phase, and become effective immediately. Also, some advantages become void when that nation losses their capital city. Advantages that become lost due to their capital being captured are noted in the advantage description, and become reinstated once their capital is liberated, all other advantages are unaffected.
Let me know if I forgot something, Cheers.
