To Taranto, or not to Taranto

@wizmark If a ship survives taranto, and the 91 cruiser or another ship survives the other battle (dd+tt) the italians are screened out and cannot amphib the surviving bomber, tac and fighter(s) that are on Syria.

Gibbastion is a great alternative, but the Italians + Germans are compelled to attack that.

@taamvan Well, for the Italian attack to have any hope Germany has to take S France. Otherwise it is a sub, dd, 2 cruisers, a bb and bomber against dd, 2 cruisers, 1 carrier, 4 fighters and a tac. 18 strength against 29. if the dd from 109 joins strength is 31 Even with the fighters it is 24 against 29/31. Uk will do more damage to Italy overall than taranto, killing all the Italian fleet as well as the Italian air whilst not losing any more units than from the counter into 97 and 96 from the axis. And to be honest if germany takes S France then i am leaving a dd in sz 94 to block. And again if G sends the whole luftwaffe to deal with the UK fleet then that is an allied strategic win.

I agree that I1 Italy cannot take egypt after Taranto…but by I2 the north african army and the ethiopians can hit cairo…all the air can hit as they can land in alex and if Italy has bough another tt that is another 4 units to amphib in. UK cant get enough troops and air to stop this and there is no fleet left to block. Land a few german air to stiffen the garrison, ferry a G inf across and axis is making an extra 12 ipcs a round from egypt. Very hard for Uk on 28 ipc to counter this.

@wizmark If you taranto, they just take London. I’ve posed the gibstack as a solution to that dynamic and will continue to try and make it work (by including your details)

I don’t see how Gibbastion stops Italy from taking Egypt I2. From SZ92, they can’t stop Italy from rolling all units towards Egypt I1. Since they have 2 trannies, the additional 4 guys will stomp Egypt.

Now there are IMHO some strategically / tactically bad choices UK has on UK2 to stop this.
a) put 2 blockers - SZ96 and SZ99. Only 1 DD so the other is a cruiser? This just bleeds the UK fleet and lets the Luftwaffe eventually pick off the entire fleet for cheap
b) Move back to SZ98 to block. But since Alexandria was taken I1, the Italians can attack with impunity and let the Germans finish off what lives. Especially since no airbase anymore…
c) Or you bought one UK2 so that you can move to SZ98. Maybe this works out as you probably can stop the Italians this turn, but 30 IPCs the first 2 turns on 2 airbases, all aircraft in Egypt or SZ98. Sea-lion? Or how about Italy takes Gibraltar now that you vacated it, and Germany reinforces. Ideally they had bought a CV G1 or G2, and with Gibraltar are ready to stop the US invasion and possibly enter the Med to help the Italians.
d) Taranto 2.0, but now the Italians are consolidated so that is less appetizing.
e) wait for Italy to advance on Egypt with invasion fleet. Watch Egypt fall, but then sink the Italian fleet. However, assuming you take a couple of hits and German forward deploys a/c to Italy, the Luftwaffe will make short work of you and land in Egypt.

The only real option is hole up in SZ92 (or maybe leave the Med – Italy $$) watch Egypt fall, and support the US arrivals to Africa and hope the combined might can take back Egypt.

I’m not seeing any good options here. Rather just Taranto…
Italy sometimes gets to attack after, but only if the raid goes bad or the counter is hugely successful. But that’s the dice. The UK transports can usually bring in enough units to keep Egypt safe UK2-4, provided that Italy never has 2 transports of their own.

@surfer

If they take either egypt or gibraltar, and UK fleet is mostly dead, they get 2 bonuses. But I’ve never cared much whether Egypt falls–though I wouldn’t put my Persiraq factories down with no/taranto. And if they go for that, UK can attack them away from their AB.

If the UK fleet survives, once the US shows up it doesn’t really matter what Italy did, their capital is under grave threat.
Because of the geometry of the SZ around Italy and the med, they can’t just block 1 square or hide.

Taranto is simple and the odds are really high that you demolish Italy, then he has to waste the rest of his forces counterattacking. In that situation, Italy is so helpless its more of a liability than an asset.

I’ve tried the Gibbastion, I can’t recall what went so dreadfully wrong with it. But I love the idea of denying Italy the bonuses so I’m going to do it again next game.

@taamvan So basically there is no perfect solution. Every option has advantages and downsides so it seems. imo the utmost priority is protecting london and so if Gibastion achieves that then that is the best short term option, even though this can have negative consequences for Egypt.

@Cornwallis

Yes I agree, and UK is distinctly more vulnerable to a snake-sea-lion when 2+ fighters leave. So going to try the Bastion next time I’m UK, it may offer more freedom of purchasing in the early UK game.

I respectfully disagree that Taranto has to be done. There are two perfectly good options that allow the UK to defend both London proper and Egypt. It is true that not doing Taranto leaves the bulk of the Italian fleet intact, but it also makes the Mediterranean play more interesting and if done properly detracts from Germany’s push into Russia by forcing Italy to continue building naval forces with its limited income in order to preserve its valuable fleet. Somewhere in the threads from a few years ago one of these options is spelled out in detail.

Marsh

@MarshmallowofWar

https://youtu.be/htJEztSxmo8?feature=shared

This is one of the many alternatives for Taranto.

You might even buy a minor in Egypte on UK1 and hold it with this move.

@Cornwallis I call thee necromancer, as thou hast brought a thread back from the dead!

Also, don’t know why you think I would want this, as I was the one saying that Taranto ISN’T necessary. Perhaps you could address your post to the people who think Taranto is necessary.

Marsh

@MarshmallowofWar i had to reply to a post in order to continue the debate.
Did you watch the video?

@Cornwallis won’t Italy just clear the Med and take Gibraltar on I1, and reinforce Gibraltar with a few German planes on G2? Meanwhile the North Africa stack retreats westward to pull UK forces away from the Middle East if pursued, and cause small headaches with the East African forces.

Italy goes up from the Med and Gibraltar bonuses while UK loses one of their bonuses. Eventually Italy gets overwhelmed when the United States throws a large number of forces into the Atlantic, but not before the Axis gain a nice head start in the economy.

@Arthur-Bomber-Harris
Italy can always take Gibraltar on I1 bc they will always have at least one transport left.
So yes they can take and hold until US blows them out of there on US2 or US3.
Bc i don´t do Taranto i have 3 or 4 fightrrs on Londen (with maybe the bomber) so Italy needs to send a portion of its fleet to protect the transports or i take them on UK2.
The UK2 will almost Never have their bonus on UK2 bc italy can always take Cyprus and hold it for one turn.

The Italian stack can´t do a lot. My goal is to protect egypt and secondly deny Italy their bonusses.
Itzly can not destroy the french fleet, cruiser at Malta, destroyer at greece AND take Gibraltar and take greece plus protect their fleet from a Taranto 2.0
The stack from Tobruk can´t do much except roaming around. Not much money there.

With this move you can safely buy and hold a factory on egypt UK1 which offers perspectives on UK2. Italy can have 2 bonusses on I1 but they can have those in a taranto game as well. But they will overstretch too fast now bc UK has more striking power left for UK2.

Not unfailable off course but i think it´s a safe move.

@Cornwallis Gibraltar is a pain to retake as German fighters can stay there for quite a while until they are needed to support the final phases of Barbarossa or the United States has a large fleet to both have enough transports and protecting ships. I often can stay there until turn 4. I love the income swing along with keeping the Allied fleet away from Western Europe.

If you frequently build a factory in Egypt on UK1, I will be sealioning with Germany. A couple bombers on G1 followed by the full transport build on G2. If i remember the math, it has a high likelihood of success and now the United Kingdom has an idle factory in Africa. That Red Sea fleet is too weak to do much if London falls on G3 but haven’t played through it.

What is the advantage of your plan vs moving the uk fleet next to Gibraltar?

@Arthur-Bomber-Harris
Cyprus can be a pain in the ass to, or Malta.
The UK1 buy would be a minor with 5 inf. I don´t take any fighters away from UK. The minor is an option, dependibg of course on a G1 built .

The Gibastiin move always fails i must say. You need to hold Algeria or italy takes it and gives a landing spot for Ger fighters which can wie out the fleet on G2. Or when they take S France on G1 they can built carriers there. Plus italy goes after egypt or ME and Blocks your fleet.

The advantage is you protect your high value assets and egypt. Plus you gain momentum for UK2 since there are more reinforcements coming from Pac fleet.

Backside is itaky has a certain initiative.

@Cornwallis I moved my UK fleet next to Gibraltar in my current low-luck game and then went over to the Eastern Med on UK2. It is supported by air bases or else it would have been sunk. That also deters an early Egypt attack as you have some more planes and troops in the theater. So far the plan has been working.

Of course this is for a game with an Allied bid. In a no-bid game, the moves would have been quite risky. I would do Taranto against an inferior opponent where I don’t want to gamble, and exploit a conservative superior player by saving the Med fleet. Plans have to depend on relative strengths of the players.

@Arthur-Bomber-Harris what was the bid? What did UK buy on round 1? Yes indeed no move or idea is 100% safe and perfect if not the game OOB would not be axis favored

@Cornwallis I had a Scotland fighter, a sub in SZ110, a sub in the Med, and a Sudan art. The rest of the 50 PU spend was to hold Yunnan on J1.

Virtually all OOB games have a Scottish fighter and a med sub so not unreasonable if you design strategies around this purchase.

@Arthur-Bomber-Harris makes sense then why you do the gibastion. The video i made is OOB bc we play tabletop but on LL so the bid is not yet on the table.

@Cornwallis for a no-bid game against a good opponent with a battle calculator, you have to be aggressive for the Allies to win. I think saving the Med fleet by moving to Gibraltar is a risky but superior move instead of Taranto. A small mistake or bad dice roll with sink the plan.

I don’t see the advantage of the Red Sea retreat but perhaps you can post a game where you played it out more fully.