Can Russia survive? (Alpha +3)

By the way, since that battle in Caucasus is haunting me.  I rolled it 3 time with real dice at home, 2 times in triple a and not once did I even lose a tank!!!

I don’t know if that made me feel better or worse :|

And yes, roll lots of 2s… I almost forgot!  :wink:

The concepts were developed before our game, eleven, and you were putting the hurt on me… but I had the dice gods on my side in that game…

You are correct!!  You are very precise with your words and write in a manner that is easy to understand.  You have helped me immensely!!!

P.S.  Your going down next time :-o

It won’t surprise me to lose to you - you should have won the last one - but bring it on!  :lol:

Everyone else is slow right now - if you get one going, I’ll be able to take a turn or two tonight - I think my bid is on our last thread.

And cb4 - I’m pretty interested to hear what you think about changing perceptions about Russia falling.

I find alot of people turtle too often with the Russia defense.

I believe the secret lies in the ability/threat of Russian counterattacks.

Separating German ground units from their air force is a major key.

That is to say, do not expose your medium stacks to german attacks that will overwhelm them, but be prepared to counter attack moves of german stacks that are pushing towards the front.

Focusing on Russian income and NO’s is also critically important.  Make a small task force of 3 or 4 units, to liberate Persia, and attack Iraq.  Iraq is worth 5 to russia.  Then continue to work your way into africa, and get one or two italian territories.  Again boosting your economy.

And don’t be afraid to take some risks!

One thing that many forget is that one major reason the Germans didn’t invade Moscow was Hitler moved his Panzer forces South to Ukraine to take Kiev. If he had pushed straight on to Moscow he would have taken it easily.

Hitler made several mistakes in Barbarossa, he attacked too late in the year because he wasted five weeks attacking Yugoslavia with forces that should have pushed into Russia. Also like I said earlier he diverted his tanks South, those two things combined with the brutal winter was the German Army’s downfall.

Of course with the game experienced players don’t have the winter to deal with, don’t care about Yugoslavia and march straight toward Moscowas fast as possible.

The german’s could of easily taken leningrad off the march in 41 and stalingrad in the middle of the summer in 42, just hitler was an idiot and told his panzer generals to wait.@maverick_76:

One thing that many forget is that one major reason the Germans didn’t invade Moscow was Hitler moved his Panzer forces South to Ukraine to take Kiev. If he had pushed straight on to Moscow he would have taken it easily.

Hitler made several mistakes in Barbarossa, he attacked too late in the year because he wasted five weeks attacking Yugoslavia with forces that should have pushed into Russia. Also like I said earlier he diverted his tanks South, those two things combined with the brutal winter was the German Army’s downfall.

Of course with the game experienced players don’t have the winter to deal with, don’t care about Yugoslavia and march straight toward Moscowas fast as possible.

I feel that part of Russia’s problem with this game (in all the box rules, alphas and second editions) is that Italy can foothold for German aircraft if it comes to it.

Something to consider however, is when your actions result in a worse situation for the allies (or axis.)  Sometimes I find these hypothetical discussions get tunnel visioned to the exclusion of all other events that could happen on the board.  I used to have arguments about how KJF would work in AAR with a previous moderator, and I mean knock down, drag out FIGHTS to the point Yanny and Djensen had to step in personally and do something about it.  Eventually he was taunted by the community into actually PLAYING me (of course everyone thought I was going to lose horribly) and of course, he implemented his anti KJF strategies but they worked so well he lost Berlin to America on like round 6 or 7 or some ridiculously LOW number.  He focused on one thing to the point he cost himself the game. (For the record, the contention wasn’t if the US could beat Japan, it was if Russia could hold out long enough for America to win.  I never actually bought anything for the front with the US, I just used the transport the US started with and a couple infantry that the US started with and went berserk with my Russians going full offensive.)

Just a word of caution.  Make sure (especially NOW with as huge as the map is now!) to consider ALL the ramifications of what you want to do.  Not saying it cannot be done, not implying it either.  Just be careful to look around the board.

@Gargantua:

I find alot of people turtle too often with the Russia defense.

I believe the secret lies in the ability/threat of Russian counterattacks.

Separating German ground units from their air force is a major key.

That is to say, do not expose your medium stacks to german attacks that will overwhelm them, but be prepared to counter attack moves of german stacks that are pushing towards the front.

Focusing on Russian income and NO’s is also critically important.  Make a small task force of 3 or 4 units, to liberate Persia, and attack Iraq.  Iraq is worth 5 to russia.  Then continue to work your way into africa, and get one or two italian territories.  Again boosting your economy.

And don’t be afraid to take some risks!

Garg - I admire your spirit, and that mentality can take you a long way toward holding out  :-D My standard Russian purchase for the first three turns has begun to include a healthy dose of artillery (at least 3 + per early turns)… as I noted to you in another thread, I call it “toothing the bear”. You have to get some fangs to go with the Russian infantry, and make up for the lack of air power for spot attacks. Sometimes an infantry and an artillery become your best friend when in need. So I very much back up your assertion that Russia needs to scrap and fight, tooth and nail, to hang on and not let Moscow fall.

However… without some sort of a dice swing, a determined and skilled German player utilizing a full-on Barbarossa will take Moscow every time. I don’t see any way around it. Therefore, in the bigger picture, a savvy Allied player will prepare for it from the beginning of the game, recognizing that the game (unlike other versions, as cb4 noted) is not over with the fall of the Russian capital. It’s only over on the Europe map when 8 VCs have been taken and secured.

@Cmdr:

I feel that part of Russia’s problem with this game (in all the box rules, alphas and second editions) is that Italy can foothold for German aircraft if it comes to it.

Something to consider however, is when your actions result in a worse situation for the allies (or axis.)  Sometimes I find these hypothetical discussions get tunnel visioned to the exclusion of all other events that could happen on the board.  I used to have arguments about how KJF would work in AAR with a previous moderator, and I mean knock down, drag out FIGHTS to the point Yanny and Djensen had to step in personally and do something about it.  Eventually he was taunted by the community into actually PLAYING me (of course everyone thought I was going to lose horribly) and of course, he implemented his anti KJF strategies but they worked so well he lost Berlin to America on like round 6 or 7 or some ridiculously LOW number.  He focused on one thing to the point he cost himself the game. (For the record, the contention wasn’t if the US could beat Japan, it was if Russia could hold out long enough for America to win.  I never actually bought anything for the front with the US, I just used the transport the US started with and a couple infantry that the US started with and went berserk with my Russians going full offensive.)

Just a word of caution.  Make sure (especially NOW with as huge as the map is now!) to consider ALL the ramifications of what you want to do.  Not saying it cannot be done, not implying it either.  Just be careful to look around the board.

Your point is well taken - every strategy has to be viewed in the context of the larger map, and all of the theaters. A very important lesson.

Something I try to ask myself during games is - my opponent has created a strength for themselves, but in doing so, what weakness have they created? So if they go north, do I counter south? If they go heavy air, do I counter with heavy land (air can clear land but can’t take it…)? If I see a group of subs purchased, will I make sure to get my shipyards to work on destroyers? Just something to think about.

I can’t remember how many VC’s you need to capture in the global game but like others have said on this thread, the game is not over when Moscow falls, especially if Britain is spending money controlling Africa and keeping the Atlantic and Med. clear of Axis ships. That allows the US to just buy gobs of troops and tanks and bombers that will be able to get intro France around the time that Russia is about to fall.

Now I mentioned before that historically one of the big reasons Moscow wasn’t taken is that Hitler made blunders. So since hindsight is 20/20, obviously an experienced player is going to charge at Moscow full bore. One thing that I wish the game would do is instead of handing over your IPC’s when your capital falls is instead giving the power life as long as one VC is standing. That would give the German player a little more trouble in knocking out Russia so fast, maybe an extra turn or two. Now once all VC’s and capitals have fallen, then the power has to forfeit money and must wait until an ally emancipates them.

This of course is only a thought and not a play tested theory. Since I have not played a full global match yet I don’t even know if the game is out of balance in the first place,  maybe Russia has to fall in order for the game to become a fair fight.
I do like the idea since I feel a nation will fight until its major cities are all under enemy control, feels a little more realistic to me.

@Stalingradski:

@Gargantua:

I find alot of people turtle too often with the Russia defense.

I believe the secret lies in the ability/threat of Russian counterattacks.

Separating German ground units from their air force is a major key.

That is to say, do not expose your medium stacks to german attacks that will overwhelm them, but be prepared to counter attack moves of german stacks that are pushing towards the front.

Focusing on Russian income and NO’s is also critically important.  Make a small task force of 3 or 4 units, to liberate Persia, and attack Iraq.  Iraq is worth 5 to russia.  Then continue to work your way into africa, and get one or two italian territories.  Again boosting your economy.

And don’t be afraid to take some risks!

Garg - I admire your spirit, and that mentality can take you a long way toward holding out  :-D My standard Russian purchase for the first three turns has begun to include a healthy dose of artillery (at least 3 + per early turns)… as I noted to you in another thread, I call it “toothing the bear”. You have to get some fangs to go with the Russian infantry, and make up for the lack of air power for spot attacks. Sometimes an infantry and an artillery become your best friend when in need. So I very much back up your assertion that Russia needs to scrap and fight, tooth and nail, to hang on and not let Moscow fall.

However… without some sort of a dice swing, a determined and skilled German player utilizing a full-on Barbarossa will take Moscow every time. I don’t see any way around it. Therefore, in the bigger picture, a savvy Allied player will prepare for it from the beginning of the game, recognizing that the game (unlike other versions, as cb4 noted) is not over with the fall of the Russian capital. It’s only over on the Europe map when 8 VCs have been taken and secured.

I find it odd that you are suggesting Russia go offensive when Germany attacks. We have tried that in several games, usually because the Russian player gets bored with just being defensive, and just about every time all it ends up being is a waste of Russian resources and an easier time taking Moscow by Germany. Now I am talking NO SEALION, straight Barbarossa by Germany. The only times the Allies seem to do well is if Russia withdraws to Moscow and turtles up, making the Germans come and meet their huge stack of infantry. Then it either takes Germany so long to get Moscow that the US/UK end up defeating them in the west, or Germany actually fails to take Moscow which makes it even better for the Allies.

Currently I’ve been leaning towards 1-3 tanks a round with Russia before going to war.  Not saying it has been working for me, but it was the same mindset, I wanted to have retaliatory strike ability and tanks (unlike Artillery) can defend better than infantry.

Another idea I had, but have not used against humans before in 2nd edition, is a 4th aircraft for Russia.  The idea is to give them attack punch while not committing their resources to counter attack (planes have to retreat.)

knp - were you talking to me, or Garg, when you said ‘you’?  :-)

If it was me, let me give a little more nuance to what I’m saying. Just because I fully believe that Germany will destroy Moscow regardless of what I do, I choose to play Russia with teeth. But I don’t go all out and go crazy… I think a couple turns of 7 infantry/3 artillery/ a mech is a good mix. If I’m feeling feisty, take off two infantry and add an armor.

Set yourself up to strafe if given the opportunity, and to use mobile forces to strike at range (Archangel can be a nice destination for Russian mech if it is lightly guarded and you can get the extra 5 IPCs, as one example).

Garg is more aggressive than I, but I believe you have to not completely give Russia the appearance of the turtle by going 12 infantry a round, or whatever. To the German player, it’s a clear sign that you’re going total defense. I like to play defense, but show some teeth in the process  :evil:

@Cmdr:

Currently I’ve been leaning towards 1-3 tanks a round with Russia before going to war.  Not saying it has been working for me, but it was the same mindset, I wanted to have retaliatory strike ability and tanks (unlike Artillery) can defend better than infantry.

Another idea I had, but have not used against humans before in 2nd edition, is a 4th aircraft for Russia.  The idea is to give them attack punch while not committing their resources to counter attack (planes have to retreat.)

Jen - armor for Russia is nice, and if the German player is taking their time gearing up (like I do, typically G3 or G4), then adding some armor is worth the money. If playing that style, I like to add a mech at an even ratio, to create a mobile force that can do some damage without losing armor.

It also creates an interesting late game opportunity for mobility and spot attacks - if Russia decides to back off out of Moscow when the end is near, having mobile units can keep Russia a player for a long, long time. If all you’ve built is a giant monolith of infantry and artillery, your forces become entirely predictable. That’s no fun  :cry:

As to a 4th Russian aircraft - again IMO it is best if going against someone who gears up slowly with Germany. I think of you see all navy from Germany on G1, it gives you the freedom to be a little more aggressive with Russia’s first purchase or two. Some people may disagree, but I prefer a 2nd tac to a 3rd fighter, despite the defensive shortcomings. My reasoning is this - I’m purchasing it for spot attacks, not to play defense behind a large stack of infantry. If you’re also buying a few armor with Russia, it matches up nicely with those as well. And, it’s still good on defense, unlike a bomber.

I am torn, generally I have played with the axis going for Sea Lion but again, this is mostly Alpha 2 and Alpha 3 we are talking about, I have scarce half a dozen 2nd edition games completed as the time of this writing, so feel free to riddle my arguments with holes, I won’t mind! lol.

However if Germany goes Sea Lion, (aka, 6-10 transports) then a 4th fighter or tanks for Russia just seems wise.  Probably more so the tanks since you can use them to spear into the Balkan States for the NOs too.  If Sea Lion is completely dead, then I know what strategy I am going to use for the rest of the year, cause no one will expect it and that’s how I win. :P

@cb4:

I have played without NO’s so far. Thoughts on Russia surviving better with them or without them???

Well, until Russia actually starts taking German territory, they only get the Archangel NO and that gets lost if the Axis have a warship in SZ 125 OR if there are other Allied units in Russian territories. So I don’t think it really hurts Russia to play without NOs.
In most of our games, once Russia is able to collect the 3 IPCs per territory for taking Axis territories, at least other than Finland and Norway, it usually means Germany is losing anyway. That extra 3 IPCs per Territory tends to simply help Russia overwhelm Germany a little quicker than they would otherwise.