Cont From the AAA Thread, but about warships not AA Guns

Too many points to discuss.
For now, let’s focus on BB and maybe carriers.

I’m ok about BB able to take a third hit, but not for carrier (there flight deck is a vulnerable point).
What can be the cost of a BB with 3 hits.
I would rather suggest: 24 IPCs. (30 IPCs far too much.)
However, I would keep  basic 1@4.
And as HR, add the first strike@1 against DD,CA,CV,BB.

You are in fire Cmdr Jen!!  :-D
there is so many aspects that you are changing about the OOB.
I take only 1 interesting aspect: escort carrier moving 3 spaces.
Is it really accurate?
The Casablanca was a slow carrier.
Maybe Independence was faster because it is built on a cruiser hull.
But does they have the speed and the operational range of cruiser?

Now, that I read about it, I will say this: only a CVL, light carrier have the same speed as the cruiser and larger carrier (around 31-32 knots).
What is their operating range is the main question now.

@Cmdr:

I was more looking for 2 destroyer, 1 fast carrier mini-fleets to race out and clear enemy convoy raids or conduct convoy raids.� Â

I was thinking the fast carrier itself may only defend at a 1 if at all (0 may be better, it’s stripped to the gills leaving nothing for defense and relying only on its fighter screen and escort ships) while the destroyers would protect it.

1 CVL A0D1M3C12, ASW, carry 1 Fgt or 1 TacB
About half the strength of reg CV but much more operational range.

How many types of carrier will you have?
Because, I don’t know which historical fast carrier you are talking about.

@Cmdr:

@Baron:

@Cmdr:

I was more looking for 2 destroyer, 1 fast carrier mini-fleets to race out and clear enemy convoy raids or conduct convoy raids.��Â

I was thinking the fast carrier itself may only defend at a 1 if at all (0 may be better, it’s stripped to the gills leaving nothing for defense and relying only on its fighter screen and escort ships) while the destroyers would protect it.

1 CVL A0D1M3C12, ASW, carry 1 Fgt or 1 TacB
About half the strength of reg CV but much more operational range.

I’d say 1 fighter only, tactical bombers need bombs and those get heavy.  Fighters I envision it carrying are equivalent to WWI fighters.

With too many specs and details, you are trying creating a tactical game level with A&A which is a strategical game level.

For example, I give first strike to BB against BB (CV,CA,DD). It is simpler and will not destroy any of them with this single first strike. A new BB can always soak one hit.
(And player choose his own casuality, amongst those ships: BB, CV, CA, DD.)

I was not thinking about HMS Hood, solely about a simple HR: "all surface vessels can suffer from the first strike of BB"

@Cmdr:

First strike is an interesting idea.� � The reduced accuracy would reflect the gunner’s mates trying to get their gun’s trained on the enemy ships at extreme range, or “plunging fire” as they called it.

I would limit “plunging fire” to Aircraft Carriers and Cruisers.� � Cruisers because I view the HMS Hood as a Cruiser and not really a battleship.� � They even call it a heavy cruiser in the documentaries, so I am not the only one that draws a distinction between it and the Yamamoto and Missouri!� � Carriers, of course, as you mentioned, were essentially useless without their flight decks and their flight decks were also made of wood.

If we went with 24 IPC battleships with 3 hits to sink, I would say undamaged attack at 4 or less, damaged once would attack at 3 or less and damaged twice would attack at 2 or less - in all events, a battleship would defend at 4. �

Also, to simulate combat, submarines would get to call their targets, but it would be fire once and retreat with no option to fire a second time unless they were forced to remain in the battle by defending destroyers.� � That way, they could target the aircraft carriers that they normally would aim for…or even destroyers which they would also be aiming for.� � That would prevent battleships from soaking hits for carriers in most instances.

I would say that is again too much complexity for little gain.
Why reduce the hit ratio, we don’t do that to regular unit.
If the cost doesn’t suit you (too unbalancing), then raise it (26?); don’t add another layer of rule for this unit.

My cost was base on this thumb of rule:
A4+D4= 8 x2 points= 16 + 4 (1 add hit)= 20 IPCs.
Adding another hit to BB, follow the same rate: +4=

SuperBB, A4D4M2C24, can take 3 hits, can bombard 1@4.
Optional HR,
Plunging Fire: 1@1 first strike on offense or defense against any 1 surface ship present (DD,CA,CV,BB,TT). Player choose his own casuality amongst these surface ships.

@Cmdr:

I know, that’s why I called it Plunging Fire - as that was what sank the Hood.

I named this optional HR according to your idea.
I find you named it very well and have a sound historical basis. :-)

@Cmdr:

@Baron:

@Cmdr:

I was more looking for 2 destroyer, 1 fast carrier mini-fleets to race out and clear enemy convoy raids or conduct convoy raids.��� �

I was thinking the fast carrier itself may only defend at a 1 if at all (0 may be better, it’s stripped to the gills leaving nothing for defense and relying only on its fighter screen and escort ships) while the destroyers would protect it.

1 CVL A0D1M3C12, ASW, carry 1 Fgt or 1 TacB
About half the strength of reg CV but much more operational range.

**I’d say 1 fighter only, tactical bombers need bombs and those get heavy.**� � Fighters I envision it carrying are equivalent to WWI fighters.

Same simplicity line as early, let’s the player choose.

CVL has 1 carrying plane capacity.
So, if it is a TacB on a single CVL unit A3D3M4C11, it will seem a worst choice vs a much interesting Fgt A3D4M4C10.
However, with 2 CVLs  A0D1M3C12, you can combine arms:
1 Fgt and 1 TacB. So the TacB become A4.

@Cmdr:

By your formula, shouldn’t it be {(Attack Value) + (Defense Value ) + (Opening Fire Value)} * 2 + 4 (Number of Hits Unit Can Sustain until Sunk) or:�  
=2(4+4+1)+4(3)
=2(9)+4(3)
=18+12
=30 IPC?

This formula was essentially base upon face value of unit and usually didn’t consider special capacity, since every unit got one, and doesn’t even consider the number of extra move.
Example DD= A2D2=4x2 total 8 IPCs
(ASW is not part of the formula)

Optionnal HR Plunging Fire was meant to all Battleships. And as such imply a bonus capacity to increase buying and interest in them at no additional cost.

@Cmdr:

By your formula, shouldn’t it be {(Attack Value) + (Defense Value ) + (Opening Fire Value)} * 2 + 4 (Number of Hits Unit Can Sustain until Sunk) or: 
=2(4+4+1)+4(3)
=2(9)+4(3)
=18+12
=30 IPC?

You made 4(3), but it is 4(2), because it is only additional hit which cost IPCs, the first hit value isnt part of the formula.

Proof of this rule of thumb:
CV A0D2 (2*2= 4 pts)  1 additional hit (4 pts)

• 2 planes A3D4= (14*2= 28 points)= 36 IPCs
  36 minus 2 Fgt (10 IPCs each)= 16 IPCs for CV only. (1940 version)

Convince about the 4 points value of an extra-hit?

@Cmdr:

Yea, we tried posting same time.

Good with it, but it’s convoluted to me.  2 for special combat, 2 for each combat “point” (attack value + defense value) and 3 for each cargo unit seems to work just fine.  I don’t mind dropping the price of carriers because they are useless without their cargo.

How did you establish the different value?

I suggested mine base on a simple inference from regular combat unit.
But, it doesn’t work for planes, neither for AAA guns.

@Cmdr:

I started with the destroyer being 8 IPC and worked out a divisor for the attack and defense values.�  It worked out, there are very minor changes, mainly the submarine is 2 IPC more expensive as is the cruiser, but the aircraft carrier is 2 ipc cheaper and the battleship with its added benefit of an extra hit and plunging fire is where it was in classic in cost.

If we took off shore bombardments off, the cruiser is the same as it was, and the bb is 22 ipc where you suggested.

Why are you trying to revised all the established cost?
If your formula isn’t able to predict the basic units, for me the formula need correction.

The formula that I applied is A and D point1 for ground unit.
A and D point2 for naval unit.
Planes and AAA seems arbitrarily fixed by Larry upon long experience.
Transport are another difficult case.
Special ability are not part of the formula but developped differently.
Inf A1D2= 3  Art A2D2= 4 MecInf A1D2+1M=4 Arm A3D3= 6
Sub A2D12=6  DD A2D22=8  CA A3D32=12
BB A4D42+4 (1 hit)= 20 IPCs.

I can tell that’s the second capacity which cost something.
But, I find CA cost too much, so I add M3.
A CVL A0D1M3 ASW and carry 1 Fgt.
1 Plane 72= 14  +(12)=2 + 2 for 1 xtr Move + 2 for ASW= 20
So, it will cost only 10 IPCs.
Unless you made it A1D1 but in 1940, CV has A0.
Is it too low 10 IPCs?