Military History's Best Loser

@Last:

Since IL did such an outstanding job of illustrating that Spain was indeed part of the Carthaginian empire and therefore refuting Mr. Crunch’s ridiculous US/UK analogy. I would like to point out that Hannibal spent the 8 years in Spain prior to MARCHING his army into the Italy. It is also important to remember that the Italian peninsula was not 100% hostile to the Carthaginians.

As far as a possible GDP comparison, I have to strongly disagree with Mr. Crunch. Carthage was not at all “puny.” It controlled vast tracts of some of the most productive lands in the Mediterranean. I find it difficult to conceive Carthage faced a greater GDP deficit than Napoleon’s France. After all Napoleon did fight against nearly ever industrialized nation in the world.

Napolean also had a significant list of allies.  Just look at the composition of Le Grande Armee

At its height in 1812 consisted of 554,500 men:
• 300,000 Frenchmen and Dutchmen
• 95,000 Poles
• 35,000 Austrians
• 30,000 Italians[1]
• 24,000 Bavarians
• 20,000 Saxons
• 20,000 Prussians
• 17,000 Westphalians
• 15,000 Swiss
• 4,000 Portuguese
• 3,500 Croats

Just look at the invasion of Russia.  At the time he really wasn’t fighting anyone else.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleon's_invasion_of_Russia

@Gargantua:

@Last:

Napolean also had a significant list of allies.

Agreed

I do wish it was possible to compare the GDP differential.

Well it’s easy. We can start by comparing apples and oranges!

…

…

Nevermind.

I like both

although the fruit in the picture doesn’t look very happy

Just remember… you’re the one giving fruit emotions.

I think Mal’s arguement has more -substance in reality- if we’re going to go there… ;)

@Gargantua:

I think Mal’s arguement has more -substance in reality- if we’re going to go there… ;)

Yeah I was aware of your position so I will have to disagree with you both. Good discussion though.

Hannibal spent the 8 years in Spain prior to MARCHING his army into the Italy

Hannibal only took over in 221 BC.  He did spend a number of years at the side of his family/father in pacifying Iberia.  A newly conquered land in my opinion is not an integral part of the empire, moreover it was only a portion of Spain.  I don’t recall ever saying part of spain was not part of the empire, but straw-men are so much more fun and easy to defeat.  I would not consider the Spanish holdings as a major portion of the empire, to the extent it would transform Carthage into a European power rather than an African power.  So I maintain that Cathage was primarily an African power fighting a primarily European power and that those two powers had a SEA between them that would hamper reinforcements and communication.

By the second punic was Carthage was not as strong as it once was, but stronger than I had thought upon further readings.  I also should have used the word sea rather ocean so point taken, Mea Culpa for poor choice of word.  My point which seems to be lost was that in my opinion it took a bit of skill to fight when you have a large waterway that separates you from your center of gravity.

Napoleon did revolutionize manpower.

In your defence Mal, old technology had a huge part to play as well…

I don’t recall ever saying part of spain was not part of the empire, but straw-men are so much more fun and easy to defeat.

I do recall the same very same strawman asserting the war was separated by an “ocean”, with excuses about where was Hannibal born, and “they only had it 19 years” being failing arguments.

Glad that was put to rest.

And yes it was fun.

I said Hannibal was no Spanish, am I not correct in that statement IL?

IL says:

It was ( the 1st and 2nd Punic wars) where Hannibal the General born in Turkey ( not Spain or Carthage) commanded an army dispatched from part of the empire in what was to become Spain in an attack against Rome.

IL, you claim Hannibal the General was born in Turkey?  Can you cite your sources please?

IL, you are correct in that I should have used the word sea rather than ocean.  Point for you.  So, where was Hannibal born again?  Is this where I would say “Get it right?”  Such an unfriendly statement that is……  Glad that was put to rest.  And yes, it was and continues to be fun.

The 19 years was the length of time New Cathage was a possesion of Carthage, hardly an integral part of their empire in my opinion.  Again, I assert Carthage was primarily an African based empire and that an ocean…rather a sea was between Rome and Carthage proper sans their recent conquests in Spain which did not make them a European power.

I said Hannibal was no Spanish, am I not correct in that statement IL?

You said it like since he was not from Spain, the attack from Spain was somehow less or that you think he was from Carthage, but he was not. That makes your point useless to any discussion.

IL says:
Quote
It was ( the 1st and 2nd Punic wars) where Hannibal the General born in Turkey ( not Spain or Carthage) commanded an army dispatched from part of the empire in what was to become Spain in an attack against Rome.

IL, you claim Hannibal the General was born in Turkey?  Can you cite your sources please?

My Masters in History from Stanford says it. It is common knowledge and i don’t do your homework.

IL, you are correct in that I should have used the word sea rather than ocean.  Point for you.  So, where was Hannibal born again?  Is this where I would say “Get it right?”  Such an unfriendly statement that is……  Glad that was put to rest.  And yes, it was and continues to be fun.

It does make fun discovering all your mistakes, since you know little about this period.  This is where you say “sure dude” and edit out everything and come back calling me a “dick” LOL. So stupid.

The 19 years was the length of time New Cathage was a possesion of Carthage, hardly an integral part of their empire in my opinion.  Again, I assert Carthage was primarily an African based empire and that an ocean….rather a sea was between Rome and Carthage proper sans their recent conquests in Spain which did not make them a European power.

The 19 years garbage is your manner of reasoning that New Carthage was somehow nothing but “bases”. It was from a coastal empire based in Europe and Africa against a republic based in Rome. You still don’t get it. The war ( at least the 1st and 2nd Punic wars) was not a war across the sea, rather it was a conflict separated by the alps and some distance ON LAND between.

The only thing true is the capital of each was across the sea, but the empires were basically close by LAND.

So get it right and stop angling out of the rope.

My Masters in History from Stanford says it. It is common knowledge and i don’t do your homework.

From your degree you assert Hannibal was born in Turkey?  The urge to crack a joke at the expense of the US educational system is nearly overwhelming.  I would however truly regret insulting my American family and friends so I shall refrain from picking the low hanging fruit.

You are a dick however and I would love to tell you this to your face.   :wink:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartagena,_Spain#Ancient_history

The town was originally named Mastia. Possessing one of the best harbors in the Western Mediterranean, it was re-founded by the Carthaginian general Hasdrubal in 228 BC as Qart Hadasht (“New City”), identically named to Carthage, for the purpose of serving as a stepping-off point for the conquest of Spain.

True, a “stepping-off point” is not the same phase as a base, but it sure is pretty much the same thing in my opinion.  But we can agree to disagree on if it was a base, a stepping off point or a huge part of the empire.

From your degree you assert Hannibal was born in Turkey?  The urge to crack a joke at the expense of the US educational system is nearly overwhelming.  I would however truly regret insulting my American family and friends so I shall refrain from picking the low hanging fruit.

Funny that you didn’t know where he was born, and yet make stupid commentary on facts and the US educational system when you have no idea what your talking about.

You are a dick however and I would love to tell you this to your face.  wink

Only if you can wear that pathetic wife beater shirt and the 99. cent sunglasses in the white trash Jimmy…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartagena,_Spain#Ancient_history

Quote
The town was originally named Mastia. Possessing one of the best harbors in the Western Mediterranean, it was re-founded by the Carthaginian general Hasdrubal in 228 BC as Qart Hadasht (“New City”), identically named to Carthage, for the purpose of serving as a stepping-off point for the conquest of Spain.

True, a “stepping-off point” is not the same phase as a base, but it sure is pretty much the same thing in my opinion.  But we can agree to disagree on if it was a base, a stepping off point or a huge part of the empire.

‘Stepping off point’ is also NOT ACROSS THE OCEAN….Get it right just for once in your life.

Where exactly was Hannibal born Sgt. Saunders? I couldn`t find anything yet…

A few sources asume he was born in Carthago during the 1 st Puni war but most of  em dont know…

I said he was not born in Spain.  It is not correct to imply from that that I didn’t know where he was born.  My degree is in computer science so I know a bit about logic and your logical conclusion is invalid.

So again IL, Hannibal was born in Turkey you say?

IL says:

“New Carthage” as it was known was part of today’s Spain. The logistical support are not “bases”- they are part of the empire, so Rome didn’t really have a sea barrier since Spain was practically next door.

Wikipedia says New Cathage served as a stepping off point for the conquest of spain.  So your argument is that a stepping of point is not a base?  Sure, they are different words.

Well my point was that that stepping off point was not an integral part of what was that empire of Carthage, it did not contribute to its original greatness.

IL says:

Only if you can wear that pathetic wife beater shirt and the 99. cent sunglasses in the white trash Jimmy…

So we have a deal then, I shall where wear the pathetic wife beater shirt and the 99 cent sunglasses and I will take my white trash Jimmy and hopefully tow a trailer and hang out with the gang in Oshawa where I will see you and I will be able to say politely you are a dick to your face and you would be wise to be polite to me in return, it is the Canadian way to be polite after all.

Wikipedia says New Cathage served as a stepping off point for the conquest of spain.  So your argument is that a stepping of point is not a base?  Sure, they are different words.

Well my point was that that stepping off point was not an integral part of what was that empire of Carthage, it did not contribute to its original greatness.

When you finally retract that the war was not “across the ocean”, but from Carthage which was also based in Spain and stop throwing up “he was not a born in spain” or “19 years makes it a base, not part of the empire”

The war, men, and material came from Spain by land to Rome. Not across some “ocean”

IL says:
Quote
Only if you can wear that pathetic wife beater shirt and the 99. cent sunglasses in the white trash Jimmy…

So we have a deal then, I shall where the pathetic wife beater shirt and the 99 cent sunglasses and I will take my white trash Jimmy and hopefully tow a trailer and hang out with the gang in Oshawa where I will see you and I will be able to say politely you are a dick to your face and you would be wise to be polite to me in return, it is the Canadian way to be polite after all.

And bring the Canada Dry…and i like this:  " I shall where the pathetic wife beater shirt"  Yea you WHERE it LOL.  Talk about education.

It’s almost like saying the US didn’t have to fight an war overseas because eventually they got bases on the enemies continent.  Almost.  Carthage really had no presence in Spain prior to the end of the first punic war.  So in 237 BC they start the conquest of Iberia.  The second punic war starts in 218 BC.  So 19 years of conquest in Iberia does mean they had some land and some allies, but again, hardly a pillar of the Empire.  It was mostly a piggy bank and a way of reclaiming wealth and power after being spanked by Rome in the first punic war.

I never once stated the attack didn’t come from the direction of Spain.  I said the war was launched by Carthage, primarily a power across the sea from Rome.  I stand by that assertion.

Does IL stand by his assertion that Hannibal was a turk or at least born in Turkey?

Got me on the where rather than wear.  Effects of almost being killed a few years ago and the resulting brain injury.

So IL, back to your assertion Hannibal was a turk?

And bring the Canada Dry

I drink my rye with water.  First drink is on me dick.

It’s almost like saying the US didn’t have to fight an war overseas because eventually they got bases on the enemies continent.  Almost.  Carthage really had no presence in Spain prior to the end of the first punic war.  So in 237 BC they start the conquest of Iberia.  The second punic war starts in 218 BC.  So 19 years of conquest in Iberia does mean they had some land and some allies, but again, hardly a pillar of the Empire.  It was mostly a piggy bank and a way of reclaiming wealth and power after being spanked by Rome in the first punic war.

Thats more nonsense, the army came from that region and here again you call the part of the empire they controlled “bases” in order to somehow make it seem the whole area is wasteland, when in reality it is the most fertile and sustaining farmland in the whole empire and populated with many people. “Bases” would apply more to the arid coastline areas along Morocco/Algeria.

The area of Spain was more sustainable than any other area besides the developed area around Tunis.

I never once stated the attack didn’t come from the direction of Spain.  I said the war was launched by Carthage, primarily a power across the sea from Rome.  I stand by that assertion.

But what you NEVER recall is the fact that this was not a war across the “ocean”, rather the entire war came from Spain so it was a war entirely from the European continent.

Does IL stand by his assertion that Hannibal was a turk or at least born in Turkey?

Got me on the where rather than wear.  Effects of almost being killed a few years ago and the resulting brain injury.

It’s not Turkey per se, rather it is in a location where modern Turkey exists.

So IL, back to your assertion Hannibal was a turk?

I didn’t say that, i said he was born in an area where Turkey is now.

and lets not forget your zinger of a comment here:

Re: Military History’s Best Loser
� Reply #49 on: February 26, 2013, 07:32:38 pm �

Quote ( from another poster)
I believe Hannibal spent 10 years in Italy with no “ocean” between his army and that of Rome.

Your reply:
Carthage was indeed across the ocean and that is from where the attack originated from sans his European allies.  Most of Frances big battles were not far from its borders excluding of course the Africa campaign and the Moscow defeat.

Quite the feat shipping Elephants to Europe.  Quite the feat surviving 10 years an ocean away from home in hostile territory.  Transportation was a bit more challenging in Hannibal’s time compared to Napoleon

And where was he born?
And he died (not born) in Gebze, Turkey. I was going on memory from what i was taught and remembered his place of death rather than birth. He was born in North Africa.